+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: Voynich text generator (/thread-422.html)
RE: Voynich text generator - Torsten - 19-05-2017
(19-05-2017, 10:36 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 08:51 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.See all the words similar to [shol] like [shory], [sholdy], [shar], [shod] and [chear]. See also the words starting with [cth], [ckh], [cph] and [cfh]. Or see the words ending in [aiin].
In what way is [shod] or [shol] or [sholdy] like [chear]?
The glyphs used are similar to each other. [ch] is similar to [sh], [o] is similar to [a] and [l] is similar to [r]. If you can replace one glyph with a similar one you can also replace all glyphs with similar ones.
If the author didn't want to make the text generation method to obvious it makes sense to change more then one glyph from time to time. Otherwise more sequences like [kol chol chol kor chal] on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or [cthor chol chor cphol] on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. could be found within the manuscript.
RE: Voynich text generator - Emma May Smith - 20-05-2017
(19-05-2017, 11:11 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 10:36 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 08:51 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.See all the words similar to [shol] like [shory], [sholdy], [shar], [shod] and [chear]. See also the words starting with [cth], [ckh], [cph] and [cfh]. Or see the words ending in [aiin].
In what way is [shod] or [shol] or [sholdy] like [chear]?
The glyphs used are similar to each other. [ch] is similar to [sh], [o] is similar to [a] and [l] is similar to [r]. If you can replace one glyph with a similar one you can also replace all glyphs with similar ones.
So they have an underlying connection, that the relationships between glyphs is more than superficial?
RE: Voynich text generator - Torsten - 20-05-2017
(20-05-2017, 10:47 AM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 11:11 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 10:36 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-05-2017, 08:51 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.See all the words similar to [shol] like [shory], [sholdy], [shar], [shod] and [chear]. See also the words starting with [cth], [ckh], [cph] and [cfh]. Or see the words ending in [aiin].
In what way is [shod] or [shol] or [sholdy] like [chear]?
The glyphs used are similar to each other. [ch] is similar to [sh], [o] is similar to [a] and [l] is similar to [r]. If you can replace one glyph with a similar one you can also replace all glyphs with similar ones.
So they have an underlying connection, that the relationships between glyphs is more than superficial?
Similar shaped glyphs can replace each other: "In most cases, similarly spelled variants of a glyph group exist. Sometimes the only difference between two glyph groups is an additional quill stroke. This is the case, for instance, for [daiin] and [dain]. In other cases, similarly shaped glyphs replace each other. One example of such a case is [okaiin] and [otaiin]" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. p. 4f).
For the connection between words containing [ol] and [or] see a observation from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "The symbol groups [chol] and [chor] are very high in A and often occur repeated; low in B" (Currier 1976). For the connection between gallow glyphs see a observation from [font=Verdana]D'Imperio for page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: "In two [/font]instances [f] with only one loop occurs … while in the other two, we see g with two clear loops in the corresponding position. Since all the other symbols appear identical, the conclusion seems inescapable that the single and double-looped forms are functionally the same" (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: p. 24f).
See for instance the sequence [chol cphol shol shol qockhol chor chol sho] on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In this example we have the replacement of [ch] with [sh], [cph] and [ckh]. There is also the change from [ol] to [or] and back to [ol].
Another example is the sequence [cthor chol chor cphol] on page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Here we have two changes between [or] and [ol] and the change between [cth] and [cph].
RE: Voynich text generator - Emma May Smith - 20-05-2017
So [r] and [l] are similarly shaped?
RE: Voynich text generator - Torsten - 20-05-2017
(20-05-2017, 01:07 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So [r] and [l] are similarly shaped?
One feature of the glyphs of the VMS is, that in many cases one stroke is enough to change one character into another one. [r] and [l] are distinguishable glyphs. But in the sense that they differ in only one stroke both glyphs have the same start stroke in common and only differ in the second stroke. A description of what I mean is described by Currier in the section "The nature of the symbols" in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: " We have the fact that you can make up almost any of the other letters out of these two symbols i and e ... These letters: [o] , [d] , [y], [s] all seem to start with a [e]-curve, which was made first ... The forms all have counterparts starting with [i] : [j] , [l] , [r] etc." (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
RE: Voynich text generator - -JKP- - 20-05-2017
It's pretty easy to find examples of self-similarity.
I opened a couple of random pages in the small-plants section and immediately saw these:
![[Image: RepetitionExample.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/RepetitionExample.png)
RE: Voynich text generator - DONJCH - 20-04-2018
(20-05-2017, 01:42 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(20-05-2017, 01:07 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So [r] and [l] are similarly shaped?
One feature of the glyphs of the VMS is, that in many cases one stroke is enough to change one character into another one. [r] and [l] are distinguishable glyphs. But in the sense that they differ in only one stroke both glyphs have the same start stroke in common and only differ in the second stroke. A description of what I mean is described by Currier in the section "The nature of the symbols" in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: " We have the fact that you can make up almost any of the other letters out of these two symbols i and e ... These letters: [o] , [d] , [y], [s] all seem to start with a [e]-curve, which was made first ... The forms all have counterparts starting with [i] : [j] , [l] , [r] etc." (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Hi Torsten,
I have been lurking for a while and have just joined this site to say, at the very least, you have a valuable Model which can be further tweaked to explain some characteristics of the VMS.
Even if as Nick said in another thread, you only explain 10% of the characteristics, that is a lot better than some who make a big deal out of translating (?) only 10 words!
What I want to suggest is, maybe in the Mark 2 version of your software, you could code in the boundary conditions of actual measured text width and paragraph length and use that to substitute in the known common line begin and line end characters according to your thoughts above where an extra pen stroke was added.
I have in mind another thread where the page layout was discussed and there was no sign of text tightening towards the ends. I find that fact persuasive and fits with your view of the process. Other discussions postulated a draft made on a wax tablet but one could also suggest a paper cutout window to impose strict width and length restrictions while composing and writing "on the fly."
What would the effect of these restrictions have on later iterations and final output of the process, I wonder. Perhaps some of the other positional restrictions on some characters mentioned by Emma and Nick would follow naturally from just that adjustment.
Forgive me if you have already thought of this, or even done so. There is a lot to follow here!
RE: Voynich text generator - Ger Hungerink - 28-04-2020
(27-02-2016, 07:16 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here's some generated text from the app. The first line is actually from the VMS, and the rest is automatically generated.
My initial impression is that there are far too many words beginning with <e>, also words beginning <i> which never or almost never actually occur, along with too many unusual words and a lack of common words like <chedy> and <shedy> (for a B language section).
initial line <f79v.P.21> (Currier B)
dShey qokal Sheedy Sheky orain otShdy dain cTher aror tShey ykeey ra*kain oroiiin
oraiin oral oralkoral or okeeo olor Sheedy eedy okol key Sheky orain oraiiin ey
kalaiiin eey dain ey olaiin eo eeo eey oryiiin eo eotey olaiiin aldan olaiiin or yiiin ey eeo qoain oryir leo ey Sheky yeo aldar eky tShdy eo ol aiiin okol araiin chy ey or aiiin eol Shdy chdy eko Shey eey eeoeey ar aiin cheko olyiir eol ol Shdy chdachdy ey lchy dair aoryir ol iin alaiin ir lchy iiin chey qoain cThes oraiin ar daiin im oloiir in rchy ir qoyir (...)
I am not in a position to run this app, but would like to perform some tests on the generated text requiring a size similar to that of the Voynich Manuscript of about 35,000 words.
Would you, or someone else reading this, please upload it somewhere to the internet and present the link to it here?