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+--- Thread: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy (/thread-421.html)
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - ReneZ - 04-03-2016
(03-03-2016, 05:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's plenty of evidence that the VMS illustrator was exposed to western herbals. Look at the oak tree host for the ivy, the monks' heads in the roots, the animal shapes in others—these are all herbal tradition.
This coincides exactly with my impressions, as I wrote a bit earlier in this thread. There are many other details.
The question about drawing from nature or copying from previous manuscripts (in general) has been discussed intensively over the last decades, as is clear from the summaries in Minta Collins' book, which I can only recommend as near-obligatory reading for anyone interested in the herbal illustrations. It has been written for people without much prior knowledge about the herbal traditions, not for herbal scholars (who say that it is not accurate in some details). It does go into the material quite deeply and has many illustrations.
The book concentrates on pre-15th Century, and mentions that the 15th Century saw an explosion of illustated herbal MSs in several style directions.
One aspect in which the Voynich MS clearly differs from most (if not all) medieval illustrated herbals is the attention on the roots. I cannot remember seeing any other herbal that does this to such a level. The roots in the alchemical herbals are also special, but in a quite different way, as they tend to be more symbolic, and clearly don't represent nature at all.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Koen G - 04-03-2016
The paper I'm working on includes a short section on differences and similarities between Ms Beinecke 408 and the Sloane herbal from Lombardy, some of which haven't been noted before - I'm curious to see what you'll think about that. Can't say too much yet, I'm doing my best to get it ready next week.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Diane - 04-03-2016
I think that people are creating a mental model here from the idea that plants have to be "learned" by someone making a herbarium, or sitting down making a drawing, either from life or from copying another book.
The impression which I have received constantly from the botanical imagery is that the person(s) who *first* made the drawings were very familiar with the plants already, and that only the system underlying the imagery's construction had been 'learned', and more likely by custom and tradition than by formal schooling.
A European didn't have to see an angel or mermaid to draw one; there was no need to sit and copy one particular statue or manuscript - it was part of the common culture and you'd already seen a hundred before - so all a person needed was the skill to draw, and a knowledge of the conventions. You don't draw an ugly or a sexy-looking angel etc, and the 'mermaid' type should always have luxuriant hair etc.
Assuming I could draw well, I could sit down and draw a potato or tomato without having to draw from a 'specimen' or another book - and I think the drawings show that sort of familiarity with the plants. Especially when we see the drawings designed especially to invoke cultural associations, as some do... I think the draughtsmen lived and worked where the plants grew - of course how you identify the plants will affect the posited locus and (rather worse for objectivity) vice versa.
* I say 'first' because there is sufficient evidence, I believe, to think our present manuscript copied from exemplars. That we don't have anything identical is just bad historical luck.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 04-03-2016
Diane: "...A European didn't have to see an angel or mermaid to draw one; there was no need to sit and copy one particular statue or manuscript "
An angel is a person with wings. Everyone (except the blind) has seen a person. Everyone who has seen a bird knows what wings are.
They HAVE seen examples of the components that comprise an angel or mermaid. A blind person, even if they regained sight long enough to draw something, if they were in an empty room with no references, would have a hard time drawing either angel or mermaid but any sighted person can draw them because they are composites of something they have previously seen.
They may not be drawing directly from life, but they are drawing from life experience. Even if they draw from a verbal description, they still base their interpretation of it on things they've seen.
The VMS illustrator did not draw the rhizome based on other herbals. No one had rendered one in such detail yet.
"That we don't have anything identical is just bad historical luck."
I think it's the opposite. If Mozart and Picasso had been copyists instead of creators, we wouldn't have much interest in their work.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Koen G - 04-03-2016
I think many people underestimate the amount of copying that went on in the middle ages, and how little material was actually original.
Also in literary traditions, many supposedly original works drew heavily on oral traditions, examples of the ancients, examples from other countries...
Take for example one of Flanders' most prized Medieval works, "Van den Vos Reynaerde" (Renard the Fox). It is considered by many the best version of this story, and the author is often praised for his skills, but the material is by no means original, and by no means the first reynaert we know.
Add to that the fact that Medieval authors cite their sources even less often than Voynicheros, unless they think it gives their work an air of authority through the ancient author.
Diane's angel example may not be the clearest one. What about dragons, for example? What she means is, I think, that some images can live in a culture and in a person's mind, without the person ever having witnessed said object "in the flesh".
If I ask you to draw an angel, you can't go to the field and observe one. You will either have to copy it from another source, or access the cultural conventions stored in your mind. You will draw a guy with wings and a halo and people will recognize it as an angel, even though they don't even exist. That is because there is a tradition of drawing angels in the West, and people know which elements and symbols constitute one. Ask someone from a different culture to draw an angel, and they will draw something else entirely.
The same still goes for modern day cultural images, by the way.. I have never seen an alien, but I could draw one and people would recognize it as one. I have never seen a humanoid robot, but I could draw a pot-and-pan robot and people who are used to that tradition will know it right away.
The same could have happened with plants among botanists: they knew certain conventions, an could draw a plant without having to have seen it or without copying it from an exact source.
I don't see any problem with the assumption that the imagery in the Voynich Manuscript is the only surviving example in its tradition. In fact, that hypothesis would explain a lot.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 04-03-2016
(04-03-2016, 05:54 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think many people underestimate the amount of copying that went on in the middle ages, and how little material was actually original.
Also in literary traditions, many supposedly original works drew heavily on oral traditions, examples of the ancients, examples from other countries...
Copying is basically what people did in the middle ages. With manuscripts being created by hand, one-at-a-time, and many of them being sacred scriptures, copying was THE thing to do, to make sure the information wasn't lost, especially considering plague could wipe out a whole town in a few weeks and all that was left as a legacy of activities and beliefs was books.
And sometimes the rules for copying are extremely strict, one mistake while transcribing a Torah scroll and you start again.
Even before printing presses, the number of Bibles and Q'urans that were copied is staggering, considering materials were scarce, people who could write were not numerous, and it takes years to copy a Bible.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Koen G - 04-03-2016
Agreed.
That is exactly why I give a lot of credit to a "lost tradition" way of thinking. "Auteurs" were just extremely rare. And if we assume a lost tradition, we may find partial parallels in other traditions.
What you say about strict rules and materials being scarce is also something I always keep in mind when assessing a Voynich theory. Too many people assume medieval scribes had large stacks of vellum lying around to mess around with.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Davidsch - 07-03-2016
Quote:reneZ: ....as they tend to be more symbolic, and clearly don't represent nature at all.
Yes, that is what i was trying to say: you can try to find a GOOD match, but i assume we can NOT find an EXACT match.
The one-step-at-a-time-herbal-approach
What we could do together, is to find specific scripts with agreeable matches based on specific details.
I think the details that most people are focusing on, are much to detailed.
If you look at the combinations of the flowers, leafs and roots, you must conclude these are at least a big percentage fantasy-like drawings.
Sometimes the title explains all. Look for example at the "'You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with moon-shaped leaves.
(78r-v, 79r-v, 80r-v: Ten drawings of 'Lunaria' (Botrychium lunaria, moonwort) with several notes and astrological diagrams)
So, compare the drawings based on simple criteria and mutually agree that the best match would be these and those MS drawings.
Then finally there will me some MS that will have the highest probable- copy-rating.
I am already on such quest, but there are so many ms...
Those then will reflect the time, place, language, religion etc. with which the author of the VMS had contact with.
From there we can see what it brings us on the text.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - -JKP- - 07-03-2016
(07-03-2016, 01:36 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:reneZ: ....as they tend to be more symbolic, and clearly don't represent nature at all.
...
If you look at the combinations of the flowers, leafs and roots, you must conclude these are at least a big percentage fantasy-like drawings.
One thing I noticed after looking at thousands of medieval (and earlier) herbal drawings, both VMS and others, is that once you get the right identification, what looks like a "fantasy" part suddenly makes complete sense.
That doesn't mean you can narrow it down to a specific species. As I've mentioned on another thread, botanists aren't even sure of the exact species of some of Elizabeth Blackwell's plant drawings, which are extremely detailed and accurate.
RE: Water Lily folio 2v stalk remedy - Davidsch - 08-03-2016
I do not agree and it is interesting to read what professionals write on these plants (i referred to them in my previous replies MS nr. js419 probably written/drawn by 3 different artists) :
Quote:.. Dr. Cristina Dondi of the Bodleian Library has suggested that the manuscript’s provenance might be the Veneto since the Italian in some of the medical notes in the late notes has a distinctly regional flavor. This might also explain some of the, so far unidentified Italian plant names.
..
The first group, all colored and apparently dating from the first half of the 15th century, consists of about 70 drawings with contemporary captions (some of which have been revised) but without text. These are executed in a conventional style, typical of the medieval Apuleius herbal. They are clearly copied from other manuscripts and the plants are often unrecognizable. The roots are heavily emphasized and are often depicted as fantastic faces and creatures, e.g. the female mandragora (f. 36) and the woad plant (f. 42), which has a blue root with a human face.
...
The second group of drawings, apparently made by the writer of the text, probably dates from the last quarter of the century. Some of the drawings are in pen and ink outline, others fully or partially colored. Although crudely drawn, the artist has obviously made some effort at accuracy in order that the plants be identifiable (see f. 27 where the artist has made his own sketch of the oriola alongside the conventional representation of the earlier period). Nevertheless, the artist retains the mythological and anecdotal elements found in the Pseudo-Apuleius illustration such as the female and male mandragora root (ff. 38v and 39v, the latter tethered to a dog to uproot it) and the oregano with the human face drinking the juice to demonstrate its application (f. 76v).
The third group, illustrating about 86 plants, entirely in color, is drawn in a naturalistic style and may have been taken from life. The plants are easily recognizable (e.g. primrose on f. 4v, peony on f.24v and balsamina on f. 77v). They must be contemporary with the text, being in some cases painted over the text while in others the text is written over the illustrations. They are captioned in the same hand.
..
And i repeat:
Since we do not know for certain what the pictures are meant to be in relation to the text,
it could be worthwhile to define which pictures resembles which ms, together.
But if there is no common ground, i'll keep working on that alone, no problem.