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+--- Thread: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 (/thread-4204.html)
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 02-04-2024
More precisely I identified the Abbey as I was looking for somewhere North West of Pavia and South West of Bellinzona, two place I had already identified, that fit the appearance of the bottom right Rosette.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 03:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To clarify, to be precise, I think the whole Rosettes foldout is a map of a circular journey taken by Abbot Antonio Barbavara brother of Marcolino Barbavara and Francesco Barbavara from the Abbey of Saints Nazzaro and Celso in the Duchy of Milan to the Papal Council of Basel and back. I don't think the whole manuscript is about his travels. I suspect that some of the alpine plants he found on his journey are contained in the herbal section of the manuscript. I also suspect that the pages with a Germanic influence such as the astronomical pages of the Voynich were copied from or influenced by manuscripts the author saw in Basel, whilst there for the Council; as the author would have spent a significant amount of time in Basel.
I welcome suggestions as to errors I have made.
There are a few labels you have there that I agree with but for the general theme of a travel memoir, I don't see it.
- I call the center circle God or Heaven. You call it the Pope. I'm not sure if the people of Europe in the early 15th century made a distinction between God and Pope.
- I first thought the things in the middle were onion-domed buildings but the people here convinced me that they are chalices or ciboriums/ciboria.
- From the top, bottom, and sides of the center circle you have "Rays of the light of God" and I agree with this. I do not agree with "Snows of the Alps".
- In the lower right you have "Herb Garden near the Abbey". I can see a garden there but I think it is generic or symbolic and not a specific place.
- I do not see the pipes/tubes as cannons but as communication between the physical world and the spiritual world.
- I see the two suns in the corners meaning the parchment is to be rotated.
I can't see people going to so much trouble to make a nostalgic travel memoir. I think it is more likely they would go to that much trouble to illustrate something from their religious teachings or for finding a vitally needed ingredient for a medicinal treatment. If it is pointing to where to find the important plant, I don't see it.
But all is not lost, it might make a fun board game. It reminds me of the old Talisman board game originally by Games Workshop.
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RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 05:50 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't see people going to so much trouble to make a nostalgic travel memoir. I think it is more likely they would go to that much trouble to illustrate something from their religious teachings or for finding a vitally needed ingredient for a medicinal treatment. If it is pointing to where to find the important plant, I don't see it.
But all is not lost, it might make a fun board game. It reminds me of the old Talisman board game originally by Games Workshop.
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Well, I consulted with an expert on medieval maps and an editor of a history of cartography journal and they both thought it a plausible theory and they asked me to write an article for the journal. And there are implications from the theory I developed which I have subsequently discovered to be the case, principally the closeness of the author(s) to the usage of the most advanced ciphers in the world at that time.
What you or anyone who disagrees with my idea ought to do is produce their own theory of the page as detailed to my own. And ought to consult experts related to their theory and see what the experts say. I have been very thorough others theorists seem much much less thorough.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - tavie - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 07:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What you or anyone who disagrees with my idea ought to do is produce their own theory of the page as detailed to my own.
I'm not sure I see the logic of this. If we want to refute a "solver", do we need to go solve the manuscript ourselves?
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 08:02 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2024, 07:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What you or anyone who disagrees with my idea ought to do is produce their own theory of the page as detailed to my own.
I'm not sure I see the logic of this. If we want to refute a "solver", do we need to go solve the manuscript ourselves?
I am not sure anyone has provided a refutation. But I accept that this kind of theory is difficult to refute. So trying to produce a detailed alternative theory is a useful challenge.
I have put a lot of time and effort in my theory of Rosettes page. I have studied maps of the time, contacted experts. So when someone says the page represents the cosmos or anything else, but provides very few further details of their theory I find it unhelpful. I think the challenge and the difficulty is in producing a complete detailed theory. I can't even attempt to refute a theory which is so vague and lacking in details as most theories of the page are.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 07:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And there are implications from the theory I developed which I have subsequently discovered to be the case, principally the closeness of the author(s) to the usage of the most advanced ciphers in the world at that time.
I do not think the Voynich Manuscript is a constructed language or a cipher text. I think it is a now extinct natural language.
You can't break a code where there isn't a code. Just like the Japanese never broke the American "code".
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RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Hermes777 - 03-04-2024
I think it is modelled on pilgrimage maps (which overlap with mappa mundi) and concerns the transfer of the pilgrimage from the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem onto a local north Italian landscape at the close of the Middle Ages. It specifically prefigures the 'Nine Mountains' devotion formalized by the Church in the 1490s but with pious folk origins, a novena set up to substitute for the ardour of the journey to the Holy Land. The map itself superimposes an (imagined or stylized) topography of Jerusalem with the region in Italy that has the Rosengarten mountains as its centre.
So, in terms of the vote, I'm for both (symbolic) Jerusalem AND a real place.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 10:53 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is modelled on pilgrimage maps (which overlap with mappa mundi) and concerns the transfer of the pilgrimage from the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem onto a local north Italian landscape at the close of the Middle Ages. It specifically prefigures the 'Nine Mountains' devotion formalized by the Church in the 1490s but with pious folk origins, a novena set up to substitute for the ardour of the journey to the Holy Land. The map itself superimposes an (imagined or stylized) topography of Jerusalem with the region in Italy that has the Rosengarten mountains as its centre.
What is your interpretation of the "Rays of the light of God"? Why are there only four?
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 03-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 10:53 PM)Hermes777 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is modelled on pilgrimage maps (which overlap with mappa mundi) and concerns the transfer of the pilgrimage from the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem onto a local north Italian landscape at the close of the Middle Ages. It specifically prefigures the 'Nine Mountains' devotion formalized by the Church in the 1490s but with pious folk origins, a novena set up to substitute for the ardour of the journey to the Holy Land. The map itself superimposes an (imagined or stylized) topography of Jerusalem with the region in Italy that has the Rosengarten mountains as its centre.
Is this what you are talking about?
Medieval Jerusalem
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I don't know anything about this formalized devotion in the 1490's. Where can I learn about that?
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 04-04-2024
(03-04-2024, 08:40 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do not think the Voynich Manuscript is a constructed language or a cipher text. I think it is a now extinct natural language.
How do you explain the statistical properties of the text?