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+--- Thread: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 (/thread-4204.html)
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Aga Tentakulus - 21-03-2024
@Mark
What surprises me most is that every tower is supposed to be a church for you. That's why I don't consider it that way. It's the details and not the idea that I reject.
Why not just a tower in a wall, or just a city gate or just a signal tower. Those are the normal things as I see it.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 12:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wouldn't consider quantity of explanation of good measure of quality.
Well, if quantity is not a good measure then lack of explanation is even worse. A fully developed and fully considered theory is likely to be better than one that is not developed at all and not given much consideration. Most theories of this page are based on a few minutes thought not hours of thought.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 07:51 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Mark
What surprises me most is that every tower is supposed to be a church for you. That's why I don't consider it that way. It's the details and not the idea that I reject.
Why not just a tower in a wall, or just a city gate or just a signal tower. Those are the normal things as I see it.
I do identify towers as gates and others. If you have any alternative identifications then I am more than happy to hear them. I have made so many identifications that they can't all possibly be correct, so I welcome alternative suggestions. Many of the buildings I suggest are religious buildings as those were the prominent ones that survive.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 07:51 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Mark
What surprises me most is that every tower is supposed to be a church for you. That's why I don't consider it that way. It's the details and not the idea that I reject.
Why not just a tower in a wall, or just a city gate or just a signal tower. Those are the normal things as I see it.
I list Wartenberg Castle, Laufenburg Castle, Waldshut Gate, Laufen Castle, Castello di Porta Giovia so I don't identify everything as a church. If there are specific alternative suggestions for an identification you have please tell me.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 21-03-2024
(20-03-2024, 04:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(20-03-2024, 10:30 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-03-2024, 10:07 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again though, I'd like to learn more about which sources you base your views on.
Who is this question directed to?
At pjburkshire.
The unfortunate thing about threads like these is that we can compare opinions all day long, but it won't really get us anywhere. If I say "I think the rosettes foldout represents a medieval fruit market" and another guy says "no, my opinion is that it represents a calendar of the year 1433", where do we go from there? No matter what the other guy says, he won't convince me that it isn't a fruit market. And no matter what I say, he will keep thinking it is a calendar. Do we keep telling each other about our opinions until one gives in and the other wins? How does this bring us any closer to the truth?
As I see it, the goal here with exploring the options for the meaning of the illustrations is not to definitively define the meaning of the entire manuscript but to try to give the people working on deciphering the text ideas to narrow down language options to explore. The people working on deciphering the text will decide which paths they want to explore.
I have to say, I was very shocked by the number of diverse ideas that people have for just the Rosettes page. I don't know how long this message board/forum has been in operation but I am astounded that there is so little consensus on the meaning of even this one page.
All these years of discussion and not even anything close to a consensus on the meaning of this one page. Maybe it really was created by homesick crashed extraterrestrials. Maybe that is why the meaning is so obscure to humans.
I keep thinking of the parable of the blind men and an elephant.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 03:19 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(20-03-2024, 04:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(20-03-2024, 10:30 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(19-03-2024, 10:07 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Again though, I'd like to learn more about which sources you base your views on.
Who is this question directed to?
At pjburkshire.
The unfortunate thing about threads like these is that we can compare opinions all day long, but it won't really get us anywhere. If I say "I think the rosettes foldout represents a medieval fruit market" and another guy says "no, my opinion is that it represents a calendar of the year 1433", where do we go from there? No matter what the other guy says, he won't convince me that it isn't a fruit market. And no matter what I say, he will keep thinking it is a calendar. Do we keep telling each other about our opinions until one gives in and the other wins? How does this bring us any closer to the truth?
As I see it, the goal here with exploring the options for the meaning of the illustrations is not to definitively define the meaning of the entire manuscript but to try to give the people working on deciphering the text ideas to narrow down language options to explore. The people working on deciphering the text will decide which paths they want to explore.
I have to say, I was very shocked by the number of diverse ideas that people have for just the Rosettes page. I don't know how long this message board/forum has been in operation but I am astounded that there is so little consensus on the meaning of even this one page.
All these years of discussion and not even anything close to a consensus on the meaning of this one page. Maybe it really was created by homesick crashed extraterrestrials. Maybe that is why the meaning is so obscure to humans.
I keep thinking of the parable of the blind men and an elephant.
I think we need more complete theories of the page to compare. If someone thinks the page represents the cosmos, then it will help if they construct a complete theory, so for example, then which rosette represents which planet and why? They need to systematically go over the page giving a hypothesis as to what each drawing represents and so building a theory of the page. This tends not, in most cases, to have been done. Producing documents that resemble the page in some ways to support a theory is important.
There is a lack of consensus on so many aspects of the Voynich manuscript. I am not sure if there is anything where there is a general consensus.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - pjburkshire - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 05:45 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think we need more complete theories of the page to compare. If someone thinks the page represents the cosmos, then it will help if they construct a complete theory, so for example, then which rosette represents which planet and why? They need to systematically go over the page giving a hypothesis as to what each drawing represents and so building a theory of the page. This tends not, in most cases, to have been done. Producing documents that resemble the page in some ways to support a theory is important.
There is a lack of consensus on so many aspects of the Voynich manuscript. I am not sure if there is anything where there is a general consensus.
There has been discussion about the T-and-O Map in the upper-right and about the compass/clock thing in the lower-left. Has a name been created for the kind of flat blue thing covered with asterisks between the tops of the six pointy-topped onion-dome things in the center circle? It reminds me of a trampoline but I don't think that is what it is supposed to be. It seems to be the main centerpiece of the main centerpiece so it must be important.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - MarcoP - 21-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 06:36 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has a name been created for the kind of flat blue thing covered with asterisks between the tops of the six pointy-topped onion-dome things in the center circle?
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport identify it as a canopy (Figure 1C, see also Figure 7C). Personally, I agree with that interpretation, but it's not as neutral as "T-and-O diagram".
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - ReneZ - 22-03-2024
(21-03-2024, 03:19 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As I see it, the goal here with exploring the options for the meaning of the illustrations is not to definitively define the meaning of the entire manuscript but to try to give the people working on deciphering the text ideas to narrow down language options to explore. The people working on deciphering the text will decide which paths they want to explore.
I am not sure how that would work. There are dozens of pages in the MS where the object is clear. These could be used for that purpose. If narrowing down the langauge would be possible in this way, of course.
(21-03-2024, 03:19 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have to say, I was very shocked by the number of diverse ideas that people have for just the Rosettes page. I don't know how long this message board/forum has been in operation but I am astounded that there is so little consensus on the meaning of even this one page.
Well, you just added one more. That's what been happening over the last 30 or so years since people had ready access to the illustrations in the MS.
(21-03-2024, 03:19 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I keep thinking of the parable of the blind men and an elephant.
Perhaps not a bad comparison, but of course, there is not a single person with good vision. Just a few who are not aware of their limitations.
The one thing that no good theory should lack is how this page relates to the rest of the MS, because there are dozens of signs that it does. It is full of recurring elements.
A theory that suggests that it stands by itself has that as a very weak point.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Antonio García Jiménez - 22-03-2024
For me, as RobGea has said, the Rosette page is a representation of the medieval cosmos. And, honestly, it surprises me that after so many years of study, there is doubt in this. I also believe, like René, that the six containers in the middle represent the healing powers of the medicine that naturally come from the astral influences.
And also like René, I believe that there are a multitude of signs that relate all the sections of Voynich. Those tubes that we see on the Rosettes page are the same tubes that we see on the zodiacal pages and in Quire 13. For me they represent the pathways through which the influences of the stars are transmitted. We also see the containers in another section of the codex with roots and plants, a metaphor for the healing power of medicinal herbs.
Anyway, we can be arguing about this until the end of time. It's a way to pass the time, but not very useful for understanding this book.