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+--- Thread: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 (/thread-4204.html)
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
I think if someone thinks the page represents a medieval fruit market then the theory had much more weight if they can flesh out that theory and explain the specific details in the context of that theory. What does each rosette represent in the medieval fruit market? What does each causeway represent in the medieval fruit market? Why was each rosette or causeway drawn the way that it was? What is the purpose of the page as a whole?
I think it is easy to come up with an explanation for the page which does not address the specific details. "It represents the cosmo", "It's a medieval board game". I think a theory is only worthwhile when it provides an explanation for most of the details. The challenge is, I think, in explaining the details and there are numerous small details.
Take as one example, of very many, the swallow-tail battlements along the causeway from the bottom left rosette to the bottom centre rosette. Below part of this wall there is a section shaded in as though illustrating a slope. Why did the author draw this? I would say as it corresponds to a geographical feature. I am not sure if anyone else has even noticed this or attempted to explain it. And the same applies to so many other details.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - MarcoP - 20-03-2024
(19-03-2024, 06:23 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the Rosettes page represents a kind of "Universe" or "Cosmos" . because there is a T-O map on the top left.
This is my favorite idea too. Illustrations on the back of the Rosettes look cosmological (one about the sun and maybe the four seasons, another about the moon) and I think that Byrhtferth's diagram (though quite different in many respects) could be the best parallel for the Rosettes.
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But Voynich illustrations are so unique that I am very cautious about all opinions, first of all my own.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
Without constructing a comprehensive theory of the page any two sentence theory of this page is fairly meaningless.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
I know Byrhtferth's diagram well and it bares an overall vague similarly. However when it comes to the details there is a marked difference.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
My annotated page is downloadable below:
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This should give an idea of the number of specific details on the page.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - MarcoP - 20-03-2024
(19-03-2024, 07:11 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I like Koen's ideas, but it can't be a coincidence that so little makes perfect sense. Nearly everything depends on interpretation. It must have been designed that way, to titillate the imagination without giving enough information to make a solid identification of anything. There is probably nothing to identify.
Medieval images can rarely be understood directly. In the end, our only chance to understand them is through some very specific text. In my opinion, the zodiac wheels in Alfonso's astromagia You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. would be just as puzzling as the Voynich zodiac, if we couldn't read the text they illustrate. This also applies to monumental art, with the decans at Palazzo Schifanoia being a famous example: the meaning of the frescoes could only be recovered in 1912, when You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. matched the images with those of an illustrated text.
Images in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s cipher manuscripts are often impossible to interpret without reading the text (e.g. left: chaotic images due to retinal persistence; right: a mnemonic device based on a set of metal wheels).
And sometimes, as with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or the Alchemical Herbal, even reading the text does not fully solve the mystery of the illustrations.
While I believe that it's difficult to exclude the presence of meaning, I share the pessimism about the possibility of ever coming to a reliable interpretation. Anyway, I would love to hear more of what art historians think of Voynich illustrations.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Koen G - 20-03-2024
(20-03-2024, 08:00 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This also applies to monumental art, with the decans at Palazzo Schifanoia being a famous example: the meaning of the frescoes could only be recovered in 1912, when You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. matched the images with those of an illustrated text.
That's a nice example!
It also shows that it could be possible to come to a broadly shared understanding of previously obscure imagery. As with the text, my prediction is that when someone puts forward an adequate solution, we will know that it is good. Currently, we are not at such a point with any part of VM text or imagery. For the interpretation of the images, this could mean one of the following:
1) They have no meaning, so we will never find the meaning. It isn't there.
2) They did have a meaning to the maker, but any texts, documents or other images that could give us sufficient proof are now lost (or have never existed in the first place). The result for us is the same as in scenario (1).
3) The meaning can be found, but we have not found it yet. It is so complex that an additional source is needed, be it visual or textual. The Warburg story Marco describes above is an example.
4) Someone / various people have already come up with a decent solution, but they did not produce sufficient proof yet, or their argumentation is lacking. As always, the burden of proof is on the person proposing the theory.
I firmly believe that the following is not a possible scenario:
5) "Someone already proposed a complete solution with excellent proof and argumentation, but people choose to ignore them in favor of their own theories."
No, it does not work that way. If your proposed solution is (1) correct and (2) you provide sufficient proof and (3) you communicate it well, people will be convinced. But so far, nobody has offered a complete solution for the rosettes page and provided adequate evidence.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
(20-03-2024, 08:18 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I firmly believe that the following is not a possible scenario:
5) "Someone already proposed a complete solution with excellent proof and argumentation, but people choose to ignore them in favor of their own theories."
I wouldn't claim to have provided proof of my theory of the Rosettes Folio. I would claim to have made a conscious effort to explain all the numerous details of the page and think long and hard about them; something that few if any others have done. Apart from the text I could reproduce the page from memory better than anyone else I would suggest as I remember so many details.
However in general I do think (5) is a possible scenario, when I think of all the people in the world who believe all sorts of conspiracy theories that go against logic or reason.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - Mark Knowles - 20-03-2024
The strongest argument for my theory of the page is that it gave me an identification of author and I subsequently discovered through much research that his brothers were writing the most advanced ciphers of the time of the Voynich in the world.
RE: The Rosettes Page - March 2024 - ReneZ - 21-03-2024
I wouldn't consider quantity of explanation of good measure of quality.