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+--- Thread: new work (/thread-414.html)
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new work - don of tallahassee - 19-02-2016
I offer the attached. Included are the new incarnation of Voynich Lite (not much changed) and the continuation for the next 413 words.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: new work - -Job- - 20-02-2016
I see that you deconstruct words using 6 groups. Stolfi used three (core, mantle, crust) in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for Voynichese. Why the three additional groups?
Also, what criteria do you use to classify codes into each group? Group I is much larger than the others and contains some lengthy codes (e.g. qockhe and checkhe).
Like Stolfi, i would prefer a simpler grammar which is not complete but highlights some of the key patterns in the text.
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 20-02-2016
Job-
Thank you for your comments and questions..
Nope. I didn't use Professor Stolfi's core, mantle, crust idea. As far as I know, only you and Nick Pelling have thought I did. I do not know why you think this.
I used Professor Stolfi's earlier prefix-midfix-suffix idea with a few more -fixes thrown in. And it is mostly just the idea, not the whole of Professor Stolfi's theory built around that idea.
The only hard and fast criteria I employed was to use what was to be found in the words. I didn't try to put prior constraints on deconstructing the words. Others have and so far seem to be stymied. The 6 groups (one only seldom appearing) reflect what is in the text.
I'm sorry the author of the VMS didn't use a simpler grammar (maybe one with only three elements/code tables?) to accommodate your preferences.
I didn't know Professor Stolfi had written or published any thoughts about the proposed deconstruction process I advocate. So, except for your statement, I don't know what he prefers.
The VMS is what it is, does what it does. I didn't write it.
I'm only showing the proposed pattern, sequence and code tables. They seem to work for 913 out of 918 words, so far - maybe 915 out of 918, if, and when, the other two Group/Table I codes are verified and attributed.
I know there are probably a lot of people that think to themselves that these results can't be right. If they aren't, they do show a whole bunch of coincidences, don't they?
I'm not sure how to ask this nicely, but, in the future on this thread, could we please discuss the pros and cons of the pattern, sequence and codes I have proposed rather than your preferences and expectations or the core, mantle, crust theory of Professor Stolfi. I hope I haven't offended you with this request.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: new work - -Job- - 20-02-2016
(20-02-2016, 01:05 PM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nope. I didn't use Professor Stolfi's core, mantle, crust idea. As far as I know, only you and Nick Pelling have thought I did. I do not know why you think this.
Stolfi has also published a grammar describing Voynichese words, so it's natural to refer to his work when discussing yours. Why do you think that i think that you've based your grammar on Stolfi's ideas? (I don't)
Quote:The only hard and fast criteria I employed was to use what was to be found in the words.
Sure, but why six groups instead of seven for example? Why 'qockhe' in group 1 instead of having only 'qock' in group 1 and 'he' in some other group?
Quote:I'm sorry the author of the VMS didn't use a simpler grammar (maybe one with only three elements/code tables?) to accommodate your preferences.
A simpler grammar is more informational and has more value. It's not a matter of what i want. I'm sure you realize this or else you would have a 10 group grammar instead.
Quote:I'm only showing the proposed pattern, sequence and code tables. They seem to work for 913 out of 918 words, so far - maybe 915 out of 918, if, and when, the other two Group/Table I codes are verified and attributed.
I'll run some tests to confirm this.
Quote:I'm not sure how to ask this nicely, but, in the future on this thread, could we please discuss the pros and cons of the pattern, sequence and codes I have proposed rather than your preferences and expectations or the core, mantle, crust theory of Professor Stolfi.
I'll continue to post what i find relevant. Maybe you could stop being so patronizing in your replies?
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 21-02-2016
-
Job-I offer the below list of Voynich words appearing 3 and 4 times in the VMS (from Professor Stolfi's list) for you to run your tests on, if you wish.
I have to show them this way - there seems to be no mechanism on this site for anyone to add attachments except the originator of the thread at the beginning.
I will be deconstructing them (or trying to) over the next week of so. I would be happy to compare my results with yours.
I think there are 541 words on the list. I have combined the words occurring 3 and 4 times into one list, alphabetically.
Not having examined the list in detail or started work, I would like to make a prediction that probably 60% - 65% will deconstruct without added codes. Most of the remaining should deconstruct using additional codes from my site. Second prediction - maybe 70 - 80 more Group/Table I codes and maybe 8 - 10 other codes, the other codes not appearing often, not sure about the Group/Table I codes. I make these predictions based only on the results of the earlier deconstruction lists.
I do have an updated list of codes for Table I (really just the old list with pen and pencil corrections, updates and additions). If you would like to use it, please let me know. I'll email it to you. Most of the other code groups/tables have few, if any, changes that will make a big impact upon the results, I think.
I look forward to comparing results, if you take me up on my challenge. Or you can test the lists I have already presented (the 505 Voynich Lite words and the next 413 words on Professor Stolfi's list) with deconstuctions already in place.
Whatever method of checking my work you decide upon, I would like to see the results, whether they support or refute my findings.
If anyone else would like a try at deconstructing or to check my work, I invite you wholeheartedly.
Let me know if I can be of assistance.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
ackhy
aiinal
aiiny
airody
alaiin
alain
alchedy
ald
aldaiin
aldar
alkar
alkeedy
alky
alo
als
alshey
an
arl
cfhey
ch
charain
charam
chckh
chckhaiin
chckhd
chckhol
chcphdy
chcphedy
chcphey
chcth
chctho
chcthody
chdaly
chdol
cheaiin
chealy
checthey
chedol
cheedaiin
cheeteey
cheety
chek
chekedy
chekeedy
chekody
cheocthy
cheodain
cheodar
cheokain
cheoldy
cheols
cheoly
cheory
cheoy
chepchy
cher
chesy
chetaiin
chetain
chetchy
chetedy
cheyky
chkam
chkchol
chkol
choar
chochy
chocphy
chodaly
chodchy
chokam
chokchey
chokchol
chokedy
chokeo
chokeol
chokody
cholaiin
cholal
cholkal
cholky
cholor
chols
chool
chopchy
chopy
choraiin
choror
chosaiin
choshy
chot
chotchey
choteol
chotols
chotor
chpchy
chsdy
chtaiin
chtar
chtchy
chtedy
chteey
chykchy
chyty
ckhaiin
ckhal
ckham
ckhedy
ckheo
ckhody
ckhos
cphar
cpheo
cpheody
cpheor
cth
cthain
ctheo
cthes
ctholy
dady
daiim
dairody
dairy
dalchdy
dalchy
dalo
dalshdy
darar
darom
daror
dchar
dchckhy
dched
dcheedy
dcheor
dchokchy
dchos
deedy
dm
doiiin
doly
dory
dshdy
dsheedy
dsheor
dshol
dykaiin
dys
ees
eey
f
fchdy
fcheey
fcholdy
fchy
fol
kaldy
kaly
kan
kchaiin
kcheo
kcheor
kchod
kchody
kechdy
kechedy
kechy
kedar
keear
keechy
keed
keeedy
keeos
kodaiin
koiin
kos
kshdy
ksheo
kshody
kshol
lain
lchar
lcheam
lcheckhy
lcheo
lcheody
lcho
lchol
ld
lkair
lkechedy
lkeed
lkeeedy
lkeeo
lkeeol
lkeo
lkeody
lkol
lkshedy
lodaiin
lody
loeey
los
loty
lshed
lsheody
lshy
ltal
n
oaiir
oair
oal
ocheey
ocho
ochol
octheody
octhey
octhody
odair
odeey
odl
oeeey
oekaiin
ofaiin
ofal
ofar
ofchey
oin
okaiiin
okalaiin
okalol
okalor
okaral
okchal
okchar
okchdar
okeam
okechdy
okechedy
okechy
okedaiin
okedain
okedam
okeear
okeed
okeedal
okeeeo
okeeos
okeod
okeodar
okeom
okeshy
okod
okom
okos
okoy
okshedy
oksho
olaly
olched
olcheedy
olcheor
olchor
old
oldal
olfchedy
olkchdy
olkchey
olkchy
olkeechy
olkeeedy
olkees
olkor
oll
olo
olom
olpchedy
olr
olshdy
olsheol
olsho
olshy
oltedy
olteedy
oor
opair
opam
opary
opchal
opchedaiin
opcheedy
opcheody
opchor
opdaiin
opshedy
opydaiin
oroly
oror
osal
otaiir
otaldy
otalor
otan
otaram
otch
otchal
otcheey
otches
otchodar
otear
otechdy
otechy
otedal
oteedar
oteeedy
oteod
oteotey
otes
otodaiin
otodar
otshdy
otshy
pchal
pchar
pchdaiin
pchedaiin
pchedal
pcheeody
pcheey
pcheo
pcheodar
pcho
pchocthy
pchy
poiin
polarar
pshedy
qeeey
qeey
qekchdy
qoair
qoal
qockheey
qockheol
qocthedy
qodair
qodam
qoedaiin
qoeedaiin
qoeeedy
qoeees
qoeeody
qoeeor
qoiiin
qoiin
qokaiir
qokcheody
qokdy
qokeal
qokechdy
qokechedy
qokedaiin
qokedain
qokedal
qokeedal
qokeeedy
qokeees
qokeeos
qokeom
qokshd
qokshdy
qolaiin
qolain
qolky
qool
qop
qopcheey
qopchor
qopor
qopshedy
qos
qotchar
qotchd
qotcheedy
qotcheo
qotcheol
qotchody
qoted
qotedaiin
qotedal
qotedar
qoteed
qoteedar
qoteeedy
qoteeey
qoteeo
qoteeol
qotees
qoto
qotoiin
qotshdy
qotshedy
qotshey
raram
rary
rcheey
rchy
rodaiin
rsheedy
sa
saiir
saim
sairy
saly
san
saral
sarar
sarol
schdy
schol
schor
schy
sha
shdaiin
shdal
sheckhedy
sheckhey
shecphy
shedam
sheeey
sheek
sheekchy
sheeody
sheet
shekal
sheocthy
sheodal
sheokey
sheom
sheoy
shepchy
shese
shetey
shkaiin
shkeeo
shkeey
shl
shoaiin
shoar
shockhey
shodain
shodal
shodol
shok
shokaiin
shokal
shokar
shokeey
shokey
shokol
sholy
shom
shoshy
shot
shotchy
shotol
shoy
shs
shtal
shtchy
shty
skaiin
soaiin
sodaiin
sodal
sokeedy
solkain
solkedy
solkeedy
soly
soy
tchar
tchedar
tcheor
tchodaiin
tedaiin
tedain
tedam
teeedy
teeody
teeos
teo
teodal
teodar
teor
toar
tockhy
todal
toldy
toy
tshed
tshor
tshy
ychedar
ycheody
ycheoky
yd
ydal
ydar
yfchey
yk
ykam
ykcheor
ykchody
ykeechy
ykeeedy
ykeeor
ykeeos
ykees
ykeo
ykeos
ypair
ypar
ypchey
ypchol
ypchy
ysaiin
ysheor
ysho
yshor
ytair
ytaly
ytchody
ytedar
yteeo
yteor
yto
ytodaiin
ytoiin
ytshy
RE: new work - Davidsch - 22-02-2016
If run the same program on a similar but different text
and compare the statistical variation on the text as a whole,
and compare the variation on the top (most occur) 10 or 20 words-prefix and the same on the suffix ?
You can see if the VMS text behaves "normal" or where the text/words behaves "the same".
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 22-02-2016
I think such a comparison with ANY other text will show large differences statistically, probably in all areas. But I'm not a statistician.
This is based on my belief that the VMS might be a bunch of recipes for the most part. There may be no normal language word structure or parts of speech or conjugations or tenses in most of the VMS. Or much punctuation, surely none that is evident.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 23-02-2016
Attached is a preliminary deconstruction of the 541 words repeated 3 or 4 times in the VMS.
It hasn't been checked yet. It may contain errors.
This makes 1459 words I have tried to deconstruct. A few will not deconstruct - about 10. About 10 more do not yet have their Group/Table I codes attributed and verified. The rest deconstruct as I say they should according to my deconstruction ideas and proposed solution.
I'll be finishing these deconstructions in the next couple of days to show all the different groups/tables. I'm sending this out now in case anyone wants to check my work and needs a larger sample.
I don't think I'll need as many additional codes as I thought to do this part, but haven't counted them yet.
If you see anything that doesn't seem right, I wish you'd let me know. If you want to argue about anything, I'm game.
I'm not making this stuff up - the original author did. I'm trying to show what he/she did.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
well, I don't see the attachment, Do you?
I'll add it to the beginning message to this thread.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 24-02-2016
Attached is a more finalized version of the work done on the 541 words repeated 3 & 4 times in the VMS. 4 words did not deconstruct as expected. Some others do not yet have their Group/Table I codes identified and verified.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
RE: new work - don of tallahassee - 24-02-2016
Here are the newly rearranged code groups I think were used to construct the VMS words that are repeated 3 or more times in the VMS.
[font=Calibri]I produced this new list to try to help anyone trying to understand or check my ideas.[/font]
The code groups so far found in the 1459 words repeated 3 or more times in the VMS (in accordance with Professor Stolfi's list). The codes in each group have been alphabetized for ease of use.
Group I Codes (231 code groups)
a, ai, aiin, air, al, alk, ar, aro,
cfh,
ch, cha, chckh, chckhe, chcph, chcphe, chcth, chcthe, chd, che, checkhe, chee, cheeke, chek, cheke, cheo, cheok, cheol, chep, chet, chete, chey, chk, chke, cho, chockhe, chocthe, chod, choh, chok, choke, chol, cholk, chop, cot, chote, choto, chp, cht, chte, chy, chyk, ctho,
ckh, ckhe, ckheo,
cph, cphe,
cth, cthe, cthee, ctheo,
d, da, dai, daii, dair, dal, dch, dche, dchee, dee, do, dsh, dshe, dy, dyk,
e, ee,
f, fch, fchee, fchol,
k, ka, kal, kch, kche, ke, kee, keo, ko, kol, ksh, kshe,
l, lch, lche, lchee, lk, lke, lkee, lo, lsh, loee,
m,
o, och, ockhe, octh, octhe, od, oe, oee, oek, of, ok, okal, okch, oke, okee, okeo, oko, ol, olch, olche, ole, olk, olke, olp, olsh, olte, op, opch, opy, or, os, ot, ota, otal, otch, otche, otchee, ote, otee, oto, otsh,
p, pch, pche, po, pot, psh, pshe,
q, qo, qockhe, qok, qoke, qokch, qot, qote, qoto, qol, qop, qopch, qoche, qockh, qoe, qolk, qotch, qe, qek, qocthe, qoee,
r, rchee, ro, rsh,
s, see, sk, so, sol, solk, solke,
sh, shckhe, she, shee, sheek,shek, sheke, sheo, sheoke, shep, shk, shke, sho, shok, shoke, shot,
t, tch, tchee, tcho, te, tee, teo, to, tol, tsh,
y, ych, yche, ychee, yk, yka, ykch, yke, ykee, ykeeo, yl, yp, ypch, ys, ysh, yshe, yshee, yt, ytch, yte,
Group II Codes (3 code groups)
f, k, t,
Group III Codes (10 code groups)
a, at, ch, che, co, ee, o, ok, ol, sh,
Group IV Codes (7 code groups)
a, da, do, e, o, ra, ro,
Group V Codes (I think these are various numbers, therefore many of them.)[font=Calibri](13 code groups)[/font]
ckh, cph, cth, d, im, ir, k, l, m, o, p, r, t,
Group VI Codes
chy, iiin, iin, iir, in, n, s, sy, y, (9 code groups)
Of these groups, there are only four codes repeated in Groups II through VI (so far).
a III, IV
k II, V
o III, IV, V
t II, V
[font=Calibri]Group II codes are found in very few words.[/font]
This effectively means the only Group II through VI codes repeated in most of the words so far deconstructed (in the words repeated 3 or more times in the VMS) are a and o.
[font=Calibri] [/font]
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
PS-Just for fun.
The code o is found in the codes above in Groups I, III, IV and V.
At my site, I also show a possible code of o in (Group/)Table II.
This means a hypothetical VMS word of ooooo could be deconstructed and understood by using the sequence of deconstruction to tell what's what. Or oooo. Or ooo. Or oo. Or only o.
Neat, huh?