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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 16-07-2017
(16-07-2017, 01:05 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quick question (your opinion)...
What do you think the unpainted parts of the containers on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be (the narrow rings that go around the tops and bottoms)?
I have my own idea about this, but I'm curious as to what others think.
My first thought was metallic rings for protection of the rims which get easily damaged or stands, see the tripod in the second container from below
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 16-07-2017
They also look like metallic rings to me.
So... assuming they are metal, what kind of metal? I was thinking bronze or brass. The simple containers seem a bit too plain to be edged in silver or gold, but perhaps the illustrator "deconstructed" some fancier containers (left out parts of them when drawing them) so as to create a hierarchy of containers from more simple to more ornate.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Koen G - 16-07-2017
It's hard to say what they are, but one thing seems worth noting. Especially on the folio you linked, it is certain that the painter had noticed that his red paint obscures text and details. Special care has been taken to paint around them. So it's possible that the details are not meant to be white but have just been left blank to keep them from being hidden under the paint.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 16-07-2017
(16-07-2017, 01:41 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.They also look like metallic rings to me.
So... assuming they are metal, what kind of metal? I was thinking bronze or brass. The simple containers seem a bit too plain to be edged in silver or gold, but perhaps the illustrator "deconstructed" some fancier containers (left out parts of them when drawing them) so as to create a hierarchy of containers from more simple to more ornate.
If it is metal, I guess it is tin (Sn). Cp. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The rims of containers were the most vulnerable part in daily use and these containers must have been valuable, good reason to keep them from damage, not to mention to keep the content from contamination. Tin was used until the early 20th c. to shield and repair the rims of ceramic vessels, especially drinking vessels, e.g. 'Bierkrüge', you could keep your beloved 'Reservistenkrug' and protect your lips
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 16-07-2017
I have to admit, I hadn't considered tin because there are little bumps and tines, and it's easier to create those details with silver, gold or brass, plus the mines hadn't yet been emptied out in the middle ages, silver was still relatively plentiful.
But your post inspired me to look around, and I found a few items of interest such as this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is later (17th century), but has some interesting design details.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 17-07-2017
(16-07-2017, 09:27 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is later (17th century), but has some interesting design details.
Even if it is later it is a good example for what I was thinking about, I did not have a good image online.
Just to mention it, the amount of silver around was much more plentiful after the Middle Ages from what came out of the South American mines
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 09-08-2017
This detail from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1480 ca) is interesting because of the three small feet at the base of the container: I think it's a rare feature in the XV Century. The flag at the top suggests that the container was made to look somehow like a tower, like the Jewish-German Havdalah spice-boxes.
It is also interesting that the context of the image is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. possibly with astrological associations (the famous illustrations of the planetary gods and their "children" appear in the immediately preceding pages).
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 30-10-2017
I thought forumites might be interested in some additional information on one of the images Diane posted on her blog Oct. 30th (you should probably look at the montage before reading this), which is a collection of mostly eastern container-shapes similar to the containers in the VMS. This is specifically about the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In Diane's montage, you'll see a small image of a coin next to a container from the VMS small-plants section. SantaColoma has also included some comparisons of this style of container to reading tubes, Ellie has posted some interesting images of early cannons that are similar to containers a little more ornate than this basic tube, and there are dozens of look-alikes to all the containers posted on this thread, so obviously there isn't consensus on what kind of container/implement the VMS container in the montage might be.
It's clear from these differing opinions, and from the many examples on this forum thread, that similarly shaped objects were used for many different purposes.
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Since I encountered the same coin shown in Diane's montage a few years ago, I have some information on it in my files that I'll combine with more recent image links (many of my old image links have expired).
There are various strikings of this coin, some with the S C initials on the two sides, and some without:
![[Image: Ab7K5ZgCeGq4DB6fj8JS96oNRR3png.jpg]](https://images.vcoins.com/product_image/89/A/6/Ab7K5ZgCeGq4DB6fj8JS96oNRR3png.jpg)
![[Image: SecularGamesCoin.png]](http://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SecularGamesCoin.png)
Image credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Image credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The inscription on these coins/medallions refers to the Secular Games held in the middle of the 3rd century CE. The coins were issued by Roman Emperor Marcus Julius Philippus (Philip I), were minted in Rome, and were intended to commemorate Rome's new millenium.
On the surface, they look very much like some of the more basic VMS containers, which is why they initially caught my attention, but if you dig deeper, you find the similarity is probably coincidental...
As examples...
The following earlier coin (below left), from the 1st century CE, also commemorates the Secular Games using the same theme, but is drawn and minted in a way that reveals the "container" shape to be a monument or monumental column rather than a container. Another of the later coins minted by Emperor Philip I (below right) includes full columns on the front of a building (possibly the Temple of Jupiter or one of the other temples built on the Sacra Via for the worship of Pagan deities):
![[Image: s-l1600.jpg]](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LVoAAOSwXcRZa~5W/s-l1600.jpg)
![[Image: tCK2Mp9iC3qNQyx4tK6a8ePXAE5x7m.jpg]](https://images.vcoins.com/product_image/94/T/6/tCK2Mp9iC3qNQyx4tK6a8ePXAE5x7m.jpg)
Image credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In fact, it's possible the monument that resembles a container may have been a sacrificial altar, as illustrated by the Denarius issued by Plotina in Rome, in 112 AD (below left), or one the Secular Games coins issued by Emperor Domitian (the same emperor who issued the coin above left), or the below right lighted altar coin (also by Domitian). These altars come in a number of shapes and sizes (most of them simple, but some quite ornate). Many were shaped like the base of a stone column:
![[Image: be0179b566b0667eb30e475661318682--gold-c...empire.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/236x/be/01/79/be0179b566b0667eb30e475661318682--gold-coins-roman-empire.jpg)
![[Image: C0999.jpg]](https://www.beastcoins.com/RomanImperial/II/Domitian/C0999.jpg)
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The Secular Games descended from Pagan traditions, and included sacrifices and theatrical performances. The tradition may date back as far as the 6th century BCE. Roman adaptations of this tradition began around 249 BCE. The games of 17 BCE included sacrifices on two of the seven famous hills of Rome.
I don't know whether Diane included the image on the coin purely due to its visual similarity to VMS containers, or because Philip I was known as "the Arab". Philip I was born in what is now Syria, in the Roman province that included Arabia Petraea, but the coin is issued in Rome, based on Roman-Pagan themes that are architectural in origin. As far as I'm aware, it has no connection to containers, nor any specific connections to the eastern world. Later Christian emperors discontinued the Secular Games tradition.
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Might the VMS containers relate to Pagan altars? I don't know. The last two coins illustrated are lighted altars, and some of the VMS containers resemble candlesticks, but the scale of the VMS containers appears much smaller than most altars and most of the VMS containers are more ornate than typical altars, so probably not.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Koen G - 30-10-2017
I'm not convinced that the containers are really containers. As you indicate, the simple ones look like so many other things. And many of the more ornate ones really wouldn't work as containers, they look hugely impractical or overly complex, even compared to some of the most similar artefacts.
I find the altars you show interesting, though. Might they be meant for burning incense or the like? This might provide an explanation for some plants.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 30-10-2017
(30-10-2017, 10:31 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not convinced that the containers are really containers. As you indicate, the simple ones look like so many other things. And many of the more ornate ones really wouldn't work as containers, they look hugely impractical or overly complex, even compared to some of the most similar artefacts.
I find the altars you show interesting, though. Might they be meant for burning incense or the like? This might provide an explanation for some plants.
The altars on these particular coins are for making sacrifices, so they probably were the size of butchers' blocks. Whether there were smaller versions of them for the purposes of worship, I don't know, I haven't had a chance to investigate that, but small versions of temple/church altars are common in many cultures, so it's quite possible.