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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 23-11-2016
(23-11-2016, 11:27 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
It is not clear but there appear to be two strings (?), by which the container/stove seems suspended from the woman's hands. But those might just be scratches in the paint or some other accident.
They might be chains. Even censers (which are hot) often have chains (especially the ones swung by priests at funeral services). Because chains are slender and loosely connected, they are semi heat-sinks and will not get overly hot.
Censers without chains resemble some of the VMS containers:
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RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Diane - 23-11-2016
Although it has taken a few years for this idea of the simple containers' being of wood to become more widely accepted (actually, those in the Vms are more likely bamboo), it is good to see that Rene now seems to agree with my conclusion on that one point, even if I cannot agree with him that the containers' characteristics, when taken as a descriptive set, permit any conclusion that they are of European origin.
I have never subscribed to the general practice of beginning with an hypothesis as "theory" for which post-hoc justification is then sought. It has some advantages, perhaps, in treating the written part of the text, but for historical or iconographical study, I believe the research and evidence must be considered first, and only as the last stage any hypothesis offered as explanation for the mass of data.
In this case, where the aim is to correctly assign the vessels in the 'roots and leaves' section to their origin, then it is vital to begin by listing all the salient features, and only at the time(s) and place(s) where we find together the full set of characteristics can we argue this section to have originated. Correctly provenancing the imagery is more important when you are interested in assisting the linguists and cryptologists than when your only aim is to appear to be offering a 'plausible' idea.
In this case, BOTH the simpler AND the more ornate containers AND comparable forms of pattern and ornament AND use of pigments like those shown (allowing for substitution when the original is in the pink-purple-black range) AND the vessels' construction and details must LL be included in the set being sought.
Unless the full set of characteristics is matched, results will be almost useless. To include the such particular details such as the 'knife-blade' legs or the regular habit of setting vessels on separate, legged stands, like the rings of 'dots' around upper and lower rim is essential for any proposed results to be valid - especially because those are the very details which, in this case, are most telling of origin and provenance.
My research into this question was completed before the end of 2012, but from that I offered in 2013 a very 'summary' summary - and there again I specified bamboo, and fitted lids for the cylindrical containers etc.
The two, extremely brief summary posts:-
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and
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RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 23-11-2016
Diane,
I am sorry, but having read the two articles you linked, I cannot see a single object there that is an exact match to any of the Voynich containers and jars.
By the way, this is a problem you share with all of us: we can all find examples of objects that are quite similar to the Voynich ones, but containers (or stoves, or censers, or spiceboxes or whatever) that are exactly the same are much harder to come by, especially when it comes to the complex ones.
There are some of your examples where a part or two of the object is similar to a part of a Voynich jar, but none is really identical.
Your red cylinders are wider than they are tall, the opposite of the Voynich jar proportions, and your bamboo cylinders have a large handle on top, something that is conspicuously absent from the Voynich ones. The more complex ones you show are even less similar, and also you don't provide the date of manufacture of any of the objects pictured.
Perhaps if you posted side-by-side comparisons of the objects you think are the most convincing (with proper references regarding period of creation, location etc... as we do here for manuscripts) with their posited Voynich counterparts that might help you argue more persuasively that they are identical.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 24-11-2016
Diane wrote:
I have never subscribed to the general practice of beginning with an hypothesis as "theory" for which post-hoc justification is then sought. ...
[deleted for brevity]
My research into this question was completed before the end of 2012, but from that I offered in 2013 a very 'summary' summary - and there again I specified bamboo, and fitted lids for the cylindrical containers etc.
----------------------------------------------------
I've never assumed the VMS containers have exact counterparts in real life, just as I've never assumed the fancy "columns" or vases on the sides of illuminated manuscripts have exact counterparts in real life. The VMS "containers" might have existed, but it's by no means certain.
If it's the case that they don't have exact counterparts in real life, if some of them, or parts of them, are embellished, imagined, or invented, then the best we can do is examine the kinds of objects that may have inspired the shapes.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Witch Mountain - 24-11-2016
(24-11-2016, 01:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've never assumed the VMS containers have exact counterparts in real life, just as I've never assumed the fancy "columns" or vases on the sides of illuminated manuscripts have exact counterparts in real life.
Dear JKP, are you saying that things in the VMS do not exist exactly in real life? I am always surrounded by pools full of beautiful women.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Karenina - 28-11-2016
I found the following images on pinterest (put can't find a link to the original images):
Early wooden storage vessels. Around 1500. Foto: Copyright Deutsche Apotheken Museum-Stiftung:
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Apotheek 14e eeuw Tiles representing a pharmacy, Cordoba, Spanje (with beautiful more elaborated containers on the left side):
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It seems to me that the evolution of simple to more elaborate containers in the VMS might have a symbolical meaning, in the sense that they could be an indication for the 'preciousness' of the recipe that is written next to them. Could be related to precious or rare ingrediënts, or to the effectiveness of the recipe, or the spiritual value attributed to it... In that case it is possible the author was inspired by the variation of containers he knew from real life, but also that for the most precious recipes he imagined some containers that were even more elaborate than the ones he ever saw.
In the case it would be an indication for the presence of precious or rare ingrediënts, it could be interesting to have a look at the plants in the 'recipes' with that in mind.
Perhaps this is all obvious and already said - sorry in that case, I am completely new. Shut me up if necessary
.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 28-11-2016
(28-11-2016, 05:39 PM)Karenina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems to me that the evolution of simple to more elaborate containers in the VMS might have a symbolical meaning, in the sense that they could be an indication for the 'preciousness' of the recipe that is written next to them. Could be related to precious or rare ingrediënts, or to the effectiveness of the recipe, or the spiritual value attributed to it... In that case it is possible the author was inspired by the variation of containers he knew from real life, but also that for the most precious recipes he imagined some containers that were even more elaborate than the ones he ever saw.
Hi Karenina,
I agree that this is definitely a possibility. Some medical recipes included very precious ingredients indeed, even gold. Your idea of the correspondence between the complexity of a container and the price/rarity of its ingredients is an idea I don't remember seeing before.
And thank you for posting the link to the tile: I think that tiles, murals and sculptures (especially the ones on building facades) as well as stained glass windows, are potential sources of inspiration for the Voynich illustrations that don't get enough attention.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Karenina - 28-11-2016
Hello VViews,
Another possibility - or an additional one - is that the composition of the container tells something about the difficulty level or preparation stages of the recipe.
As if a simple wooden container would mean "just dry the plant parts and ground to powder", and the onces with two levels "mix the powders of the main ingredients first and then add the last powder", and the onces on tripods would need one or more cooking or distillation phases of some kind ... (Perhaps I am just thinking this because the ones on tripods remind me vaguely of samovars). Or some completely different code of course, but I mean some visual reminder of the preparation process, in wich a simple container stands for a simple preparation and an elaborate one for an elaborate recipe.
I don't know if that kind of illustration procudure would be compatible with the general visual conventions and image language of the time of the VMS.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 29-11-2016
(28-11-2016, 09:29 PM)Karenina Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello VViews,
Another possibility - or an additional one - is that the composition of the container tells something about the difficulty level or preparation stages of the recipe.
As if a simple wooden container would mean "just dry the plant parts and ground to powder", and the onces with two levels "mix the powders of the main ingredients first and then add the last powder", and the onces on tripods would need one or more cooking or distillation phases of some kind ... (Perhaps I am just thinking this because the ones on tripods remind me vaguely of samovars). Or some completely different code of course, but I mean some visual reminder of the preparation process, in wich a simple container stands for a simple preparation and an elaborate one for an elaborate recipe.
I don't know if that kind of illustration procudure would be compatible with the general visual conventions and image language of the time of the VMS.
I think this is entirely possible. The containers have hierarchical shapes and complexity and these kinds of interpretations may well apply.
There is one that appears to be made of glass (it looks to me like the illustrator was trying to draw transparency) and it occurred to me this might be for tinctures, scents, or something precious. Delicately crafted glass is something most people (even very imaginative people) wouldn't think to draw unless they had actually seen a glass container. Many contemporary glass-makers create them, but those fine latticino-style stripes were not common in ceramic, wood, or leather containers, and were rare even in 15th-century glass.
In the middle ages, glass containers of this kind were only available to the very wealthy (usually royalty) and were only made by the finest glass crafters in a very few places (Murano, Turkey/Persia, Egypt). Assuming it's glass, that doesn't help to identify where the illustrator may have seen one, unfortunately, since the wealthy were always on the move (or had emissaries to travel for them) and many of them collected exotic animals, materials, and containers, or received them as gifts from associates trying to ingratiate themselves, and showed them off to sustain their image of being above other people.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 16-07-2017
Quick question (your opinion)...
What do you think the unpainted parts of the containers on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be (the narrow rings that go around the tops and bottoms)?
I have my own idea about this, but I'm curious as to what others think.