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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 19-02-2016
Hello Richard,
the tenth would be partially hidden by one of the microscopes.
I certainly cannot identify any of them, but I was under the impression that you had identified them as Swiss. Perhaps it was an assumption.
It's worth comparing the image with this one:
![[Image: fig.-41.-apotheke.jpg]](http://www.lexikus.de/pics/manager/mittelalter/deutsches_leben_anno_xiv-xv/fig.-41.-apotheke.jpg)
where there are 28 (including two on the table). While the quality isn't very good, I think there are already a few 'armorial beasts' among them.
See also here:
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Perhaps the book in which these illustrations are found explain better what the patterns mean, because I am not sure how a box would relate to a family or a city, and I could even imagine that these are rather "codes" for the contents.
A very interesting page is also this one:
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and I am surprised that I had not run into it before. The leftmost woodcut is from after 1350.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - david - 19-02-2016
The heraldic decoration of pharmaceutical jars (usually with the designs of religious orders) was very common before the 17th century.
Benedictines, Cisternians, St James's, etc etc.
This interesting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Jaume E. Mercant Ramírez delves into the subject quite deeply (but it is in Spanish). He investigates, amongst other topics, the types of jars, their provenance and their designs in southern Continental Europe. See page 133 and following.
He doesn't go as far back as the 14th century, but leaves the implication of the tradition clear.
The healdic decoration was to indicate their healing properties by association. The elaborate designs on the jars marked them out as being specially designed and made for apothecaries. He doesn't, from my first skimming of the text, mention that the designs were for families.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 19-02-2016
(19-02-2016, 09:03 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Richard,
...
Perhaps the book in which these illustrations are found explain better what the patterns mean, because I am not sure how a box would relate to a family or a city, and I could even imagine that these are rather "codes" for the contents.
...
It is Hieronymuss Brunschwig, Liber pestilentialis. HAB Wolfenbüttel As far as I can see from a short look, there is no explanation of the patterns
Liber pestilentialis de venenis epidimie. Das buch der vergift der pestile[n]tz das da gena[n]t ist der gemein sterbent der Trüsen Blatren. von Jeronimo bru[n]swig / Jeronimus Brunswig. - [Electronic ed.]. - [Strassburg] : Grüninger, 19.VIII.1500
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RE: The containers in the Pharma section - R. Sale - 19-02-2016
Thanks Rene,
I see it now. #9 is supported by #10 (obscured) and #11 (out of frame).
The proposed Swiss connection comes from the posting by VViews, which identified that photo as the "Alte Suidtersche pharmacy in Lucerne" circa 1833 . I looked at the Swiss geographical insignia because that was what I could find.
The newer illustration you posted, shows a number of patterns in escutcheon and the majority of these are geometric. Those few remaining are not clear enough to be identified as anything in particular, geometric or representational. And I would not make *any* claim about them one way or the other.
Thanks to Helmut, a colorized version of this same illustration shows replica of these same insignia with applications of red, green, black pigments, but strangely there is no blue. Compare this with the original photo where the shelves are filled with blue and white jars. Is this coloration really valid?
It would appear that the escutcheon patterns found on pharmaceutical jars are *not* geographic and not familial heraldry. The suggestion of religious associations has been made, but so far Dominican, Cistercian, Carmelite, and Jesuit insignia patterns are out.
So the same challenge remains, and Helmut's colorized patterns can be included, find one clear pattern on a pharmaceutical jar that can be definitively and exclusively connected to *something* relevant to the illustration - such as what the jar contains, or whatever. Better yet, find a relevant system by which these patterns can be understood in a pharmaceutical interpretation.
While this investigation of pharmaceutical patterns is interesting, the relevance to the patterns found on the tubs in the VMs Zodiac appears to be very minimal. These tub patterns demonstrate nine different, *named*, traditional heraldic patterns and present half a dozen different potential historical connections. And therefore my contention is that this VMs evidence supports the use of heraldry as an investigative premise and the pursuit of that premise results in historical grounding.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - R. Sale - 20-02-2016
Here's a good example of a labelled pharmacy jar with an apparent armorial escutcheon.
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The gold / tan color gives some reason to think that the blue and white insignia was presented in its actual colors, and not the default colors of standard blue and white pottery.
The design would seem to be a bendy, azure and argent, embattled.
Now, if anyone can explain the connection between the insignia and the contents, that would be great. Obviously, it would seem, if the contents are named on the label, the use of some sort of coded insignia would be redundant. Or if there are additional examples that are similar, they may help.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 22-11-2016
I have no idea what type of container that is in the middle of this miniature from a medical treatise, but it looks very similar to the simple ones in this section:
![[Image: container.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/container.png)
Cambridge University Library, MS Dd.10.68, f2r. Italy, 15thC. Link to the rest of the digitized manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 22-11-2016
(22-11-2016, 08:40 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Cambridge University Library, MS Dd.10.68, f2r. Italy, 15thC. Link to the rest of the digitized manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Thank you, VViews. A very interesting ms! From the online description:
Quote:This beautifully-illuminated work is a medical tract, in five parts, dealing mainly with medicine and pharmacology, but with excurses on astronomy (astrology) and divination. The handwriting is Italian, of the 15th century. Joseph b. Isaac is the first author cited (on f. 2r) and a later note on the fly-leaf attributes the whole work to him.
...
Origin Place: Italy
Date of Creation: Fifteenth century
Language(s): Hebrew, with some Italian, Judaeo-Italian and Arabic
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 23-11-2016
(22-11-2016, 08:40 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have no idea what type of container that is in the middle of this miniature from a medical treatise, but it looks very similar to the simple ones in this section:
Cambridge University Library, MS Dd.10.68, f2r. Italy, 15thC. Link to the rest of the digitized manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
VViews, I haven't looked at the original to see if the text explains the picture (can't take the time right now), but it may possibly be a small stove (or combination stove/lantern). I don't think it's an incense burner, although that's a secondary possibility.
The reason I think it may be a small stove is because it resembles those I've seen in medieval books about warfare. Soldiers were always on the move, always on crusade or camping at the next siege site, so they needed small portable stoves for cooking food and heating knives and other implements of torture (pretty grisly stuff going on in those days).
Since the man is holding a beaker, it's possible they were heating it on a stove to create a chemical reaction. It may also represent distillation (distillation was used to create medicinal tinctures and required heat to evaporate the liquids). A traveling doctor would need a portable stove for creating medicines (or for warming poultices) if no apothecary was available to do it.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 23-11-2016
It is obviously a case of uroscopy, where temperature is important.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 23-11-2016
JKP and Helmut Winkler,
thank you both for your comments.
Yes, it is "obviously a case of uroscopy"...I love how daintily he's holding up that flask of urine, with his pinky finger extended!
I had thought that maybe the "container" could have been used to encase the flask to bring it to the doctor for examination. It hadn't crossed my mind at all that this could be a stove, but I could see that being the case thanks to your explanations.
It is not clear but there appear to be two strings (?), by which the container/stove seems suspended from the woman's hands. But those might just be scratches in the paint or some other accident.