The Voynich Ninja
The containers in the Pharma section - Printable Version

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RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 16-02-2016

(16-02-2016, 11:43 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've only just noticed now that the so-called "Fabergé cup" Ellie mentions seems to actually be a drawing of two cups, is that right?
The red paint makes it hard to tell, but looking at the stem part, there is a wider, mostly green and yellow container behind it: Am I seeing things or is this actually what's drawn there?

I've been puzzling over that as well, for quite a while, and simply can't tell if it's meant to be one container behind another, or if it's meant to indicate transparency (or translucency), or if it is meant to symbolically represent the inside and outside at the same time.

It was this container in particular that made me suspect that at least some of the objects in this section were drawn from real life rather than from imagination because purely imaginative drawings don't usually have this sort of "awkwardness" in the outline. It feels like the illustrator is trying to represent something that may be difficult to draw.

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 16-02-2016

This image has everything, including boxes with heraldic designs, old microscopes and what looks like a herbal...

[Image: Suidtersche_full.jpg]

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 16-02-2016

14th century Italy and Spain, I'm posting these mainly for the feet:

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RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 16-02-2016

Wow, Rene that picture is awesome! It's now my laptop wallpaper. Smile
I see it is from the Alte Suidtersche pharmacy in Lucerne but I couldn't understand the video on their site and YouTube subtitles are just awful.
From what little I could understand, this collection was mostly put together by the founder of the pharmacy in 1833? Is that right?

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 16-02-2016

Yes, it seems to be 1800's style. I particularly like the boxes with the city/region/family arms. I had only seen these in woodcuts so far.

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - EllieV - 16-02-2016

(16-02-2016, 11:43 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've only just noticed now that the so-called "Fabergé cup" Ellie mentions seems to actually be a drawing of two cups, is that right?
The red paint makes it hard to tell, but looking at the stem part, there is a wider, mostly green and yellow container behind it: Am I seeing things or is this actually what's drawn there?

I agree, it is hard to tell if there are one, two or even 3 objects on this one.

As far as imaginary objects go - there is this style of decorating manuscripts and early printed book with borders formed with stacked vases or something like that. So the VMs artist may have been doing some stacking in this manner.
   

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - R. Sale - 16-02-2016

Rene,

I see nine different potential heraldic insignia. No eagles or lions on any of them. All are geometric even though relatively recent. And apparently Swiss.

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 18-02-2016

Hello R.Sale,

indeed, clearly it is possible to have 9 (even 10) examples of heraldic insignia without the usual beasts.
That does weaken the argument I had.
Still, among the 9-10 there are a few that are not basic geometrical designs, and I also believe that each one of them is identifiable. This does not work for the tubs in the Voynich MS zodiac section.

Either way, the argument isn't closed by any means...

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - R. Sale - 19-02-2016

Rene,

Let's call it a discussion as it seems there are several potential topics to consider.

Let's call the heraldic patterns in your photo, #1 on top of #2 and #3 on the table. #4 and #5 on top of #6, #7 and #8 on the left and #9 in the lower right. Where is #10?  It may be that the designs are not all *basic*, but they are all geometric. Do you see something that is representational?

I have looked through an armorial listing of the cantons and major cities of Switzerland and found nothing even close. I have also tried using blazons in English - probably a poor choice - without any success. The problem is finding access to a relevant reference, should one exist.

If you believe these patterns are all identifiable, then the challenge is to find one match - if anyone is interested. And if someone can put a name to the gold "J" shaped pattern on #3 that might provide an interesting clue.

*
And as to weakening your argument about the presence of lions and eagles and various beasties. Excuse me, but that argument has been demolished. First eliminate all anachronistic examples back to the consolidated VMs parchment dates, anywhere circa 1430 CE. There are lions and eagles in use at this time, but they are far fewer in number compared to the geometric examples.

Now shift again to the latter part of the 13th Century. The vast majority of these early insignia are geometric and not representational of any birds or animals, except a few martlets This is the time of the Fieschi popes whose armorial entitlement comes from an even earlier source.

The VMs is not a heraldic text. It has no requirement to be inclusive of any pattern example. The insignia are chosen at the author's discretion. Using an insignia with a representational charge would seem to be something that would be far more easily recognized for what it is, than the current use of examples of insignia that do not have representational charges has proven to be. The presence of historically significant insignia, tucked into second place in the White Aries optical illusion is already proof that the author is using disguise to mask his intentions. [The purported presence of an eagle and a lion in the VMs plant roots is the province of those who make claim to that discovery.]


The findings of my investigation are that there are nine different patterns from traditional, historical heraldry than have easily matched, corresponding designs on the tubs of VMs Zodiac: paly, bendy sinister, barry, chevronny, semy of roundels, gurges, papelonny, armille, and bendy. Some of these patterns are repeated in the illustrations.

Among them there are half a dozen potential historical identifications, most of which coordinate well with Fieschi history. So it definitely does work in the VMs patterns.

Let's see you put a few points on the board with your pharmacy examples. Let me know if I can help.

Regards,
Richard

RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 19-02-2016

(19-02-2016, 12:40 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let's call the heraldic patterns in your photo, #1 on top of #2 and #3 on the table. #4 and #5 on top of #6, #7 and #8 on the left and #9 in the lower right. Where is #10? 
Top right corner, maybe?