+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Diane - 14-02-2016
JKP
I had to limit the search because my own collection of images runs to the thousands, and I can provide closer or not-so close examples from pretty much from anywhere over quite a long time-span.
To link here, I look for the same details recorded in my own catalogue e.g.
"container, cylindrical, glass, [place], [time] [culture] [imported/local] etc.
... search those terms, and see if anything close to my own example turns up.
As you'll understand, this is pretty time consuming, and limiting it to what interests others seems sensible.
As far as I can see, on this board a majority are not much interested in examples beyond the range of Europe's medieval-to-Renaissance period, and of those a majority are most interested in examples from Germany.
Would not that be so?
So I limited the range accordingly: "medieval' "renaissance" "German" and then - because I do know the sort of image likely to include a picture of a foreign or exotic sort of container, I added "Magdalen" "women at the tomb" "Magi" and "enamelled".
I see none of the examples were 'thanked' or commented favourably on. Would you prefer a different search-range?
D
PS - My own survey of the types - published, as usual, some years ago, did a full check of the Magi and the 'Women at the tomb" imagery from about the 10thC to the late 15th in mainland Europe, as well as the usual histories of manufacture for different classes of object - and ivories, carved details from Cathedrals, stained glass.. etc.etc. and my final conclusion was that the range of containers seen in the VMS are not explicable in terms of a European origin until long after our manuscript was made.
But you do find the odd similarity, and that 'Magdalen-Barbara' I thought especially interesting.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 14-02-2016
You're right that the searches can be unwieldy (sometimes millions of hits).
I do frequently narrow it down with "middle ages" or "medieval" or 13th (14th, 15th, etc.) centuries.
But I have to honestly admit I so rarely narrow the search by geography that I'm having trouble thinking of examples, with the exception of looking for old maps (which are usually categorized by region and thus easier to search for by name).
Germany and Italy as we know them (and many other parts of the world), didn't exist in the middle ages, so geographic searches are problematic in that some will refer to them by contemporary names and others (usually historians) by the cultural group or county or kingdom that existed there at the time (some of which were very short-lived).
The big Chinese trading port in the southeast, famous especially for its satin, which was already very multicultural by the 13th and 14th centuries (and on the verge of Mongol conquest), has dozens of names associated with it as recorded by merchants and other travelers, and phonetic equivalents that would be difficult to search. I can't even remember the contemporary name for the city because I've seen it spelled half a dozen ways and it's called something different now. Oslo used to be Christiania, Ireland used to be Hibernia, and Scotland was Albania. In fact, many people misread "Albania" in old texts as referring to what we call Albania now.
Lombardia used to encompass all of Italy with the exception of Rome and Ravenna.
For different historic locations, it's almost easier to search by what they traded (which was based on local resources) and by specific names (rulers or people who traveled there) than by the name of the city or region.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Diane - 14-02-2016
JKP
Since I begin by checking my own collection, and when I go to the online 'G/gle' or whatever, I have the original's description beside me, in which the object's provenance is given, it's easier for me than it must be if you have to start from scratch.
Often the objects I have photos of myself are ones in museum collections, and it can be a real pain when the same object isnt available online.
I think the city you mean is the port which medieval people called 'Zayton" or "Zaitun". If you search for those the alternatives will surely be given too.
A while ago I posted about it, and the fact that an Italian girl's tombstone was disovered there well before anyone had thought Italian traders had gone so far. On the other hand, John of Montecorvino mentions that a physician from Italy (Bologna, if I recall.. but that I'd have to check) had been where Montecorvino was - in capital, inland - and been speaking about the disruptions to the papacy which led to the move to Avignon.
Also, there is another tombstone there - I posted it as a postcard in 2013 I think - which has a really fascinating script. No-one commented or anything, but I do wish some of the palaeographers and linguists would consider it.
Also - just btw. As far as matching the containers went - I found every design element present, together, in Buddhist artefacts, and illustrated them across the range from central Asia to the far east. None from Chinese territory, though. I think the period when the originals were drawn is no later than the 10thC AD at latest (because of a reference, as I see it to footbinding in the botanical section), and were it not for that, I'd be more inclined to have them earlier.
Anyway, the journey is a pleasure in itself, no matter how many have passed before. Enjoy.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 14-02-2016
Quote:Diane wrote: "A while ago I posted about it, and the fact that an Italian girl's tombstone was disovered there well before anyone had thought Italian traders had gone so far. On the other hand, John of Montecorvino mentions that a physician from Italy (Bologna, if I recall.. but that I'd have to check) had been where Montecorvino was - in capital, inland - and been speaking about the disruptions to the papacy which led to the move to A[i]vignon."[/i]
This map of Syriac-speaking emigration supports earlier migrations, as well (very interesting map).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I've also read stories about early Chinese trading ships reaching northeast Africa much sooner than anyone realized, before the Chinese outlawed the really big ships and some of their shipwrecked descendants apparently still tell stories of how they reached Africa and apparently have a few artifacts passed down from the voyages.
There are also stories in Basque history that the Basque whalers reached North America decades, possibly centuries before Columbus. I believe it's possible they did since they visited Iceland so frequently that they developed kind of a "pidgen-Icelandic" Basque from their communications with the Icelanders (I assume Iceland was a stopping port) and probably heard about "lands to the west" from the Icelanders who had communicated with the Vikings who continued west. If you can get from Iberia to Iceland, it's not so hard to get from Iceland to Greenland and even easier to get from Greenland to eastern America.
I've always thought it was strange that history books say the west didn't know anything about the east. If Asians and the northern tribes (the Arctic peoples) could get from Africa and Europe to Asia in the very early migrations, why wouldn't travelers and sailors with better technology go there too? Some of the Jewish communities along the Indian and Malaysian trading routes are very old.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - VViews - 14-02-2016
Hi everyone,
thought it would be worthwhile highlighting the following:
a quick Google search for Besamim (jewish spice containers used during Havdalah) brings up some interesting examples, both in metal and wood. They often have feet too!
examples:
silver: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
wood: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
these are nice too:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm sure someone out there must have noticed this before... anyone have any good pictures of besamim from the 14th/15thC?
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 14-02-2016
Wonderful examples, VV.
Here are some ormolu (mostly reproductions since the renaissance form of gilding was outlawed due to its toxicity) and some ormolu-style items:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Some urns:
Italian You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Irish You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And some architectural finials which, if you detach them, are sometimes free-standing:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Rood screens sometimes have some very VMS-like finials, but I don't have a good example handy.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 14-02-2016
(14-02-2016, 10:22 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi everyone,
thought it would be worthwhile highlighting the following:
a quick Google search for Besamim (jewish spice containers used during Havdalah) brings up some interesting examples, both in metal and wood. They often have feet too!
examples:
silver: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
wood: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
these are nice too:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I'm sure someone out there must have noticed this before... anyone have any good pictures of besamim from the 14th/15thC?
Thank you VViews, these Havdalah besamim are great!
Of course, those with a circular section seem particularly relevant. The custom of making them look like a model tower (square section, banner on top etc.) apparently only started "from around the sixteenth century":
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I attach a couple of examples from Germany, XV Century (from the Center of Jewish Art You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
The triple / quadruple leaf-shaped feet I find particularly peculiar appear for instance in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 14-02-2016
Lathe turning was quite well developed by the time the Voynich MS was written.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The shapes of the pharma containers are largely compatible with this production technique. Feet could/would have been added separately, though I would say that some of them really look as if they are metal - e.g. the ones shown by Marco just before. Would this be pewter?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The various forms of the containers all appear in the same context in the MS, so whatever they are, they have the same role.
Even when some of them look like early microscopes or rather opera glasses, the majority clearly aren't.
Similarly, even if some are similar (graphically) to the canons of Alfonse of Aragon, as drawn by Pisanello in the mid 15th C, they clearly are not guns.
I like JKP's mention of candle holders, as the objects we see in the MS could just possibly even be that, and their shapes are not at all out of the ordinary for candle holders. (Though I have seen only very few images of candle holders with lids).
These points show to me, however, that the shapes are not out of the ordinary for the time of the MS.
Possibly, similar illustrations exist, but have not yet been found or published.
Similar shapes (for the more elaborate containers) may be found in later times, by a century or more, in lathe-turned ivory. These are objects of art. Rudolf II had some, which had an oval rather than circular ground form, but still lathe-turned. These were 'stacked boxes' (my tentative translation for Stapeldosen).
I don't know if such stacked boxes existed in the 15th C, but their purpose was to have many different containers.
The pharma section containers could well be different because some of them were supposed to contain single herbs / drugs, others several different types of herbs / drugs, and others still liquid drugs (which should not be made of wood....)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 14-02-2016
Stapeldosen are very interesting, thank you Rene!
And they were used as pharmacy jars (these are much later, 1610, from Prague).
I also agree about the feet likely being of metal and being attached to the main body of the containers.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Diane - 14-02-2016
I haven't time just now to follow the links - will come back later.
But I'm delighted to see someone mentioning besamin boxes.
I have some examples from the Yemen which I posted on the research blog, so I'll dig them out and add them to the list.
About their history -
Until relatively recently, all the silver work done in the Yemen was the inherited preserve of one family - originally a clan - Wondering why they should have the skill all to themselves, as evidently that had for centuries, I did a bit of work, and found that silversmithing had originally been a specialty of the Jews in Persian territory, and that from there some went to Yemen and others as far as China, where they are believed most likely to have introduced the technique of cloisonne.
None of my references were online ones so no links, I'm afraid.
I've found them ok, in posts from 2012 and 2013, and including a perfume bottle that I'd like to share. 'Findings' blog is closed, though, so just linking is no good. Is there any other way to share pictures?
I decided to re-post my first survey. Most of the bessamin images are in it, along with other interesting things like early red glass. Hope someone enjoys it, anyway.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.