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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 29-08-2020
So... if the plant drawings are Italian-influenced (which I suspect they are) and the containers are Italian-influenced (which your post indicates they might be), and the zodiacs are France/AngloNorman -> Flemish -> Alsace/Bavarian -> MAYBE Italian influenced (at least according to what I've managed to find so far except it's hard to know exactly WHERE the illustrator might have seen them)...
What I've been able to find out palaeographically about the text on 116v (so far) is that it's probably Bohemia or northern Lombardian. I have almost 2,000 reference scripts to help verify this.
Northern Italy has long been on people's radars, but getting SPECiFIC examples as evidence has been elusive.
Yes, possibly incense, considering the sticks in the center (assuming they are like modern incense sticks).
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Koen G - 29-08-2020
The difficulty with Italian examples is that they are so different stylistically, at least when it comes to the human figures. The Vm artist was clearly no Giotto... but he may have seen his works
The sticks in the middle are the suitors' rods. The two vessels are part of the temple's items. I suspect incense since this is usually what medievals would understand under things like "burnt offering".
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 29-08-2020
(29-08-2020, 10:54 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The difficulty with Italian examples is that they are so different stylistically, at least when it comes to the human figures. The Vm artist was clearly no Giotto... but he may have seen his works
Or... actual containers, containers used as models for the illustrators. Many of these were "mass produced" (by medieval standards). I've looked into this. They would have a particular style that was popular that they would replicate many times.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 29-08-2020
You know, Koen... one of the things that's important about your find is how close it is. Not just the general form, but the proportions are very close. So this one, at least, is not a product of imagination. I somewhat suspected that might be the case because there are a couple of other containers for which I've found possible models (not the same container, but some of the same parts). This is someone more literal than imaginative, but... imaginative perhaps in the sense of being ingenious rather than being visually creative.
Hmmm. I don't know how to explain this. There are different kinds of creativity and, for the most part, they don't have names.
For example, some people are creative at combining things (collage artists). Some are creative at creating fantastical things. Some are creative at rebuses, some at creating crosswords. All different skills. The VMS illustrator follows a lot of formulaic traditions and also follows real life (viola, etc.). These are more literal or production-line than creative. And yet...there is the hint of ingenuity in the sense that there might be things hidden within the drawings, but that is a different kind of creativity from creating fantastical containers.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 29-08-2020
The VMS containers have more detail than the Giotto containers. This is why I'm wondering if it might have been drawn from real life rather than from another drawing/painting.
But since each goldsmith/tinsmith had his own style, it's still very important because if it is drawn from real life, it localizes it. (Of course, containers like this were also given as gifts, but the ones used in local ceremonies were more likely from local sources.)
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 30-08-2020
A detail of the left vessel from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In my opinion, the pseudo-kufic inscription suggests that this was meant to represent an Eastern object. I think it is possible that the models were actual Eastern objects imported through nearby Venice. I don't know about the "transparency": is this a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.?
I could not find a detail of the right-side vessel.
Names of the parts of a pyxis (bottom to top, literal translations): A foot, A1 border, A2 neck of the foot, B stem, B1 knot, B2 fitting, C body, C1 cup, C2 lid, D termination, D1 apical cross. Of course this is a different kind of vessel, but it's nice to see that the basic structure is the same (cross aside).
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 30-08-2020
I would never have noticed that if you hadn't posted the detail, Marco. I thought it was an attempt at drawing a shadow, but in the detail it does look like it might have been painted over.
The underpainting appears like a squatter, more tear-drop shape. A changed shape or transparency?? Really hard to tell.
I wonder if there is recorded history of changes since it was created.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - DONJCH - 30-08-2020
Also, the multiple toes on the foot - common in the VM but few other examples have been posted here.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Anton - 30-08-2020
I think the containers in the pharma section would be drawn from the natural examples which the author himself used to work with in his everyday practice. It would be strange for a practitioner to model his container drawings from some paintings elsewhere.
The paintings elsewhere just confirm that such and such shapes and forms were indeed in usage.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - nickpelling - 30-08-2020
Without seeing an X-ray image, we indeed have the strong possibility to contend with that we are looking at a Giotto original and a later restoration all at the same time (I'm talking specifically about the base here), because painting on plaster was flakey. So yes, a pentimento seems likely to me.