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+--- Thread: The containers in the Pharma section (/thread-406.html)
The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 12-02-2016
Somewhere else in this forum I suggested that the 'simple' containers in the pharma section (3 bifolios in quires 15 and 19) look as if they could be made of wood. This could also be true for the more elaborate ones, but let's look at the simpler ones first.
These are found on the two bifolios of quire 19, up to and including f102 recto. On f102 verso the more elaborate containers start, which are then continued on the earlier bifolio in quire 15.
They look like 'open' containers that could also have a lid, and only one of them seems to have a lid, though this is far from certain from the drawings.
Typical "open" container on f99r:
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Perhaps only closed one on f100r:
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The following page (in German, with pictures) gives some real examples from our time frame of interest:
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This page tries to sell medieval-like containers and the point is that the modern 'replicas' (shown in the upper left corner) are accurate, as based on old receords and old finds. The picture in the right margin shows original examples found in East Germany.
Some of the text on the page is of interest. It says (among others):
Wooden boxes, at home and in the kitchen (11th - 15th Century).
Wooden objects found many different applications in the middle ages, and were manufactured in several different ways. (I would like to highlight: by turning).
Their shapes remained largely unchanged over several centuries.
Examples.
The larger container was based on finds in Brandenburg (i.e. East Germany) around the 10th-11th Century. Illustrations and finds of containers created and decorated in similar ways may be found up into the 15th Century.
The smaller containers were based on finds in the Augustine monastery of Contance. Also these are attested in similar forms until after 1500.
Often, these containers are shown (drawn) in connection with pharmacies, ointment containers of Saints, or for conservation of herbs and spices.
(end of summarised translation).
The bit I don't understand is about the ointment of/for Saints....
There are some sources listed under 'Quellen' which seem to be manuscripts with relevant illustrations. I have not seen any of them.
They should be of interest.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 12-02-2016
Thank you for the new thread, Rene!
I think this subject can provide some relevant information.
I agree that the simple cylindrical containers are reasonably close to the wooden examples of the German site, and I think that examining the visual sources they link will be helpful. If I understand correctly, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the 1250 Freiburg Magdalena. Of course, Saint Magdalena is a good source for the iconography of small vases!
In my opinion, also the more complex Voynich containers are relevant. It is possible that they are an invention of the illustrator, but they seem to me too complex to have been created without actual models. Anyway, I am not aware of good parallels. I hope that this thread will allow us to collect some.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 13-02-2016
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was modified in the XIX Century, so it is not clear to me how much of it is original. The top part could match one of the Voynich containers on f88v. I would be interested in understanding more of the leaf-shaped feet of some of the containers.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 13-02-2016
The containers look to me as though they might be made of a variety of materials. They are not all drawn the same way or with the same level of ornateness.
Some possibly of wood? Some of leather? Some of metal? One looks very much like it was made from glass (the illustrator has attempted to make it look transparent).
Also, I'm not convinced all of them are containers. I think some are, but some of the shapes of the "containers" might be based on candlestick shapes and a few look more like finials than containers and were possibly inspired by the many ornate finials that adorned buildings and reliquaries at the time.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - ReneZ - 13-02-2016
Mentioned already long ago in this respect are the so-called Egyptian perfume bottles. A web search will turn up a large number of pages like the following:
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What is not clear is if these were already manufactured in the 15th C.
Also, since they are blown, the shapes with cylindrical components would not be a natural result of this process.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Helmut Winkler - 13-02-2016
(12-02-2016, 06:29 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The bit I don't understand is about the ointment of/for Saints....
They are talking about ointment containers a saint is carrying (as his personal attribute) to anoint someone else, e.g. Mary Magdalene to anoint Jesus, cp. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., an even better example are the Three Magi, you can find containers similar to the Voynich vessels in nearly all of the medieval paintings and sculptures of the Heiligen Drei Könige
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 13-02-2016
Glass has been around for a very long time in the Mediterranean area (they have the right natural materials for making it) and goes back as far as the ancient Egyptians (apparently the claim that the Phoenicians invented it are based upon the assumption that they had the right materials for it, rather than being based on the discovery of actual artifacts).
Furnaces for firing clay have been around a very long time also.
Furnaces and glass-blowing was a logical progression that resulted in vials and bottles used for storage by the early Christian era.
Pliny not only wrote about herbs, he also wrote about glass-making.
But, I don't know when ornate blown glass was first made or how long it took to spread through merchants and travelers to other areas. I know that the glassworks were moved from Venice to Murano in about 1400 (by memory, so I may be off by a decade or so). I have a number of pieces of Bohemian glass, but none before 1850.
Given its reputation for decorative glass, Murano and the Czech glassblowers who were in communication with Murano may have been doing some fancy stuff by the 15th century.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - MarcoP - 13-02-2016
(13-02-2016, 11:32 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mentioned already long ago in this respect are the so-called Egyptian perfume bottles. A web search will turn up a large number of pages like the following:
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What is not clear is if these were already manufactured in the 15th C.
Also, since they are blown, the shapes with cylindrical components would not be a natural result of this process.
The two perfume containers on the left date to the VI and IV Century BCE. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I think that shapes tended to be replicated in different materials. The Egyptian perfume bottles fit well to some of the containers: it would be interesting to trace the history of their shape.
I made some preliminary search, but the three / four leaf-shaped feet are still a mystery.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - Diane - 13-02-2016
I've got a couple you might like. Fifteenth century and German.
Most are found in representations of the Magi, or of Magdalen or of that somewhat mysterious group of 'Holy helpers' who emerge as a cult in the Rheinland about the fourteenth century (this according to the Oxford History).
This one is Netherlandish
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This is German (two for one here)
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Not sure where this is from, but it's fun
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anyway, those are versions of Barbara, or I should say "a" Barbara.
Now for Magdalen and the women at the tomb.
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perhaps not that one, it's a bit early for the "fifteenth-century author" argument.
Hold on. I'll limit the search to "medieval German"
Sorry - phone is ringing.
But just search "Magdalen" or "Women at the tomb" and then add whatever time and place you're interested in. Same for manuscript art, or woodcarving.. Ivory is especially rich in this sort of image.
Cheers.
RE: The containers in the Pharma section - -JKP- - 14-02-2016
(13-02-2016, 02:52 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hold on. I'll limit the search to "medieval German"
I hope you're not assuming that's what people are doing.
When I do searches for container shapes, I search for spice jars, spice bottles, perfume jars, arborello, finials, candelsticks, urns, ormolu (the French containers often have feet), ink bottles, hookahs, and every generic term for container that I can think of and I will often search in five or six different languages.
The same for zodiac symbols, crowns, stars, mermaids, handwriting styles, clothing, plants, or anything else in the VMS.
Not once can I ever remember limiting my search to "medieval German" or to any specific region. The data leads to Lombardy, not the other way around. And that doesn't mean I'm assuming it was created there or by a Lombardian, even when the data leads there, but one can't ignore the data. It's piling up.