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+--- Thread: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script (/thread-4017.html)
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Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Koen G - 12-06-2023
A lot of uncertainties remain about the handwriting of the German-Latin-like text of f116v. Could it have been written by the Voynich scribes, or does it belong in a slightly later period? Are some of its features unique, or are they found elsewhere? Do some features point to a specific region, and if so, how specific? Sometimes, we see a script that looks and feels the same, but looks may be deceiving, so we need to come up with a standard way of comparing and assessing comparative scripts.
Inspired by Katie Painter and Claire Bowern's paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (presented at the Malta conference), Marco Ponzi and I got talking about doing something similar for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. script. We discussed which letters to include, and their most important paleographic features. I compiled everything in a google drive doc and added some images for clarification.
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Now if we are to learn anything new from this, we will need lots of data. Therefore, the whole thing has been set up with collaboration in mind. First, we have to make sure that our categories are clear and well-selected. So if you are somewhat familiar with the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. script, please have a look. Did we forget anything important? Is anything unclear?
Then, if you would like to collaborate on this project, even if it is just by adding one manuscript every once in a while, please let me know and I will invite you to be an editor on the file.
Some notes:
- In the images, green means good, red means bad. When something is circled in red, it is a counterexample.
- We did not include certain glyphs that were too problematic:
- "8"-shaped glyphs, there is still too much discussion about whether they are 'd' or short-'s' or both
- 'i', it is too variable
- 't' and 'c', they can be too difficult to tell apart in this kind of script
- We did include 'c' as part of the 'ch' ligature
Tips for filling in the file:
- Manuscripts can have multiple scribes. To make sure that you stick with one scribe, ideally look at one or a few adjacent folios.
- A form needs to be somewhat common. For example, a feature of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. script is that the bottom of 'a' is open. If you hunt through a manuscript for any 'a' with an open bottom, you will probably find one, but this is not the point. If a scribe closes all of his 'a' on a page apart from one, then his 'a' is closed.
- It is clear that we are looking at the bastarda/gothic cursive family of scripts, but within that family it will be useful to include a lot of variation. I have been testing it mostly with 15th century German manuscripts so far, but we also need 14th century, 16th century, England, France... Just to get a more well-rounded data set. Got a favorite manuscript? Put it in there!
- The total is automatically calculated in the blue column. Expect scores to be low! The maximum to be obtained is 25, but it will be a challenge to find anything over 15. A good score is around 10, an awesome score is between 10 and 15.
So let me know if there is anything you would like to see changed, and if you would like to help with this project!
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Aga Tentakulus - 12-06-2023
You mean as an example compare the 2 VM words on 116 with others in the VM text. Just like comparing individual letters like "a + o", which also occur in the VM text.
My view is artistic. So the single nymph represents the same drawing style as the rest of the nymphs. I see no real difference in the representation.
This drawing (nymph) seems to visually match the ink of the text, also the 2 VM words.
The rest is up to you.
The same picture between the drawing and the German, as well as the VM text, can also be seen on page f66r.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Koen G - 12-06-2023
No I mean to compare the regular text in German/Latin to regular text in other manuscripts. Check the file here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
By the way, if anyone knows of a good candidate manuscript but does not want to enter the data themselves, just post the link here and I will enter it for you.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - RenegadeHealer - 12-06-2023
I’m stoked to see what this study turns up, and will definitely be following along as it gets underway. Koen G and Marco P, I’ve had utmost respect for both of you gentlemen’s work ever since I got into the VMs. Not only is your presentation easy to follow and engaging, but never compromises on scholarly rigor and depth. I’m excited to see what a collaboration between the two of you is able to accomplish and elucidate. Good luck.
When I get a free minute, I’ll edit this comment and share some links to some threads and posts that make important background reading for this current study. There have been some truly epic discussions of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. over the years.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Koen G - 12-06-2023
The current highest scores are held by ÖNB Cod. 15096 HAN MAG, suggested by JKP (15 pts) and especially Univ. Heidelberg Cod. Pal. germ. 647, found by Rene. The latter is well above all manuscripts listed so far, with 18 points. I added a credit column to reflect who suggested or added which MS.
If you know of any MS that should be added or that you would like so see in the list, don't hesitate to post it here.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Koen G - 18-06-2023
Marco and I are currently trying to build a map, but we need more manuscripts. These are the requirements:
* dated to the 15th century; early or late doesn't matter
* The MS should have a known origin, preferably a city, but at least a limited region
* The script should not be a book hand, so not like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but rather a cursiva/bastarda... Is does not necessarily need to be a close match for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. script!
We are especially interested in filling out regions we haven't decently covered yet: large parts of France, northern Germany, Scandinavia, Spain, more eastern parts of Europe... So far our core area around the Alps is well represented, so anything you can think of from outside of this area will be useful. So if you know or find any manuscripts we can include, just post them here and we'll add them to the file.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - nablator - 18-06-2023
Charters from Bohemia:
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Some good matches for the rounded g on top, flat on bottom in the late 14th c. (1393, 1395) and early 15th c. (1402).
I see now that there are fonds from many other countries:
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A great site for sampling precisely dated and placed documents.
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - R. Sale - 18-06-2023
Have you tried heraldic texts?
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RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Koen G - 19-06-2023
(18-06-2023, 10:33 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Charters from Bohemia:
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I think you just casually provided one of our better matches so far
RE: Collecting comparative data for the f116v script - Aga Tentakulus - 19-06-2023
So far it's already a nice collection.
I have skimmed (read) some of it.
Apart from the individual letters, the words and the spelling provide information.
Based on the person, some words are preferred.
It doesn't matter which region, but there is no trace of grammar.
It's nice when there are so many examples in one pile.