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+--- Thread: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? (/thread-3903.html)
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - LisaFaginDavis - 30-11-2022
For a detailed study of clothing in the 15th century, I highly recommend Myra Orth's Illuminating Fashion. It's a giant book with hundreds of images that literarly goes decade by decade. Fantastic glossary of terminology as well. It focuses on France and the Netherlands, but is still a valuable resource for understanding trends and details.
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RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 30-11-2022
Tagged two more Alsace manuscripts.
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Just one image here. It's an earlier (1410) representation from the story of Ortnit. There's a similar illustration from Strasbourg dated 1420. It is an interesting tale, new to me. Is it familiar to others??
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The other source from Alsace has eleven illustrations from a bible dated 1410.
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I don't really know how to describe this style. Compared to later Strasbourg and Haguenau productions it appears 'crude' or 'raw' or *something*. But taking a closer look at the illustrations reveals that the artist has gone through and painted everyone's lips red.
The presence of red lips is prevalent among the VMs nymphs, of course. I looked for this manuscript in prior discussions here but didn't find it. Is there an investigation with data on "red lips"?
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Aga Tentakulus - 01-12-2022
Mural Zurich around 1400
Motif. Woman with crown "Frau Minne, judge of love".
Interesting what she is holding in her hand. Are these the figs again?
The posse of the lovers. Based on the description, the one who has just been bewitched and torn out her heart with her hand.
The two different sleeves are also interesting. One wide and one jagged.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Aga Tentakulus - 01-12-2022
I have now taken a closer look at the archaeological construction report of the mural.
It is interesting what she is holding in one hand, and it is not figs. Who would have thought that?
Here is an excerpt of the report and a link.
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Symmetrical composition
In the centre of the picture the winged and crowned woman Minne is sitting strictly frontally. Two crouching
serve as her throne. In her right hand the queen of love is holding an arrow with which she is
into the heart of a youth kneeling to her left. The young man approves of this
The young man approves of this action, for he has willingly opened his doublet. In her left hand Ms Minne presents a heart
Minne presents a heart that she has stabbed out of the chest of a youth kneeling to her right.
The man's horror at this act can be read from his raised hands.
Probably a pair of lovers originally stood on either side of the figures described.
Only the one on the right is completely preserved; a man and a woman are embracing. On the
On the left side only the woman can be seen today. Originally, a trombonist stood at each of the
a trombone player. While the one on the right has been completely preserved, on the left side
only the end of a trombone is still visible.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - davidjackson - 01-12-2022
It is interesting how the stylised heart
has changed so little in the last six hundred years.That must be a very early example, IIRC the symbol started to emerge from illustrations within French Romance poetry in the early 15th century.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - ReneZ - 02-12-2022
(01-12-2022, 06:03 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.IIRC the symbol started to emerge from illustrations within French Romance poetry in the early 15th century
After seeing Aga's mural drawing I had the same thought, and I googled a bit. This is of course not at all conclusive, but I was surprised to find that it seems to go back to the 13th century, and the first use is assumed to be from the "Roman de la poire" (romance of the pear).
As regular readers here will remember, some oddly shaped objects in the Voynich MS have been compared to figs or pears, so quite possibly there is a connection here. Perhaps someone is interested in following this up in more detail.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Aga Tentakulus - 02-12-2022
The heart symbol has evolved from the heart-shaped ivy leaf. Apparently it goes back to the 13th century.
Both can still be seen in the playing cards. Pike symbol of life and heart of love. It used to be green.
Report:
On 14 February, thousands of heart emojis are sent out, paper hearts are cut out and heart-shaped boxes of chocolates are given away. On the most romantic day of the year, the symbol of love cannot be missing. But where does the shape actually come from?
The symbol of love was a plant.
The shape of the red heart with the two arches and the tip at the bottom has nothing to do with the human organ. It is true that the congruent halves of the symbol roughly correspond to the two chambers of the heart. But when the heart-shaped symbol was first used, no one was thinking of the human heart.
It all started in ancient Greece, where ivy leaves were considered a sign of eternal love because ivy is evergreen and long-lived. Vases were painted with the climbing plant, and bridal couples received a sprig of ivy at their wedding as a symbol of lasting fidelity.
The leaves, which have a heart-like shape, were thus associated with romance. At that time, however, the heart beating in the human chest was not yet considered the centre of the emotional world. On the contrary: the ancient Egyptians believed that conscience and intelligence were stored there. Nor did the blood-pumping organ have anything to do with the shape of the ivy leaf. Rather, Aristotle believed that the human heart looked like a pyramid or a pine cone.
The ivy leaf turns red
The triangular relationship between the shape of the heart, love and the human organ emerged in the Middle Ages. The Dark Ages adopted the ivy leaf of antiquity as a symbol of love. At the same time, red was established as the colour of love. So the ivy leaf was coloured accordingly in images of minneliterature - thus the red heart we know today was created.
At the latest in the 13th century, Christianity brought about the connection between the symbolic heart and the human body part. The "heart of Jesus" appeared in ecclesiastical representations: A flaming red heart shape worn by the Son of God on his chest - where the human heart beats. This was established as the physical seat of love: "With all your heart," the Bible says, "you shall love God."
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Aga Tentakulus - 02-12-2022
To return to the sleeves.
They existed at various times, from the 13th to the 16th century.
For me (personal opinion) no reason to doubt the date.
When I compare the Lauber vs. VM, it is not the clothing or the attitude of the people I am looking at. I have seen these again and again in 200 years.
It is the choice of colours that puzzles me. They make it look so familiar.
The colours make me suspect that they were applied later.
In some paintings, for example the flower viola. The colours were applied very cleanly and conscientiously.
In others, very sloppy and botched. It looks to me as if there was no time.
Here the assumption is that some colours were added later to achieve a better price for the book, and this had to be done quickly.
Perhaps he was familiar with the Lauber books.
This would have happened shortly before Rudolf's purchase.
As I said, this is pure speculation.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 02-12-2022
Something of an oddity here. Another manuscript attributed to Hagenau, but with a date: 1157-1185. There are ten illustrations shown. A few persons are represented as non-military, but the site's focus is on medieval armor. So there may be better illustrations in the text.
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It seems to indicate that as more of the older manuscripts are accessed, that they show a greater variety of clothing styles at that time.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Juan_Sali - 22-12-2022
(30-11-2022, 08:21 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.painted everyone's lips redMore lips and cheeks painted red in the following ms, some images are tiny painted and others are not painted:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Hagenau · middle of the 15th century.
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Biblia sacra.Southwest Germany · first quarter of the 14th century
Royal You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. c 1307-c 1327