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+--- Thread: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? (/thread-3903.html)
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - davidjackson - 28-11-2022
As an example of how women's fashion changed much faster than that of the men, look at illustrations from the 1430's.
Here is a clear example from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Several of the men still wear exactly the same outfit as the Gemini from the Zodiac section, but the female fashion has moved on considerably (note, for example, how they wear their hair in the "pair of temples" style common for the 1430's). The woman's fashion is much older, whereas male fashion continued over a much longer period - in the same way that men wore jeans in the 1950's and 2020 without much change, but a woman wearing 1950's style would really stand out today!
The wound turban, and the ridiculously low belt, with pleated hose and tight shoes, tight cuffs, loose elbows and distinctive neckline are all there.
![[Image: gemini.jpeg]](https://stephenbax.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/gemini.jpeg)
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 28-11-2022
The problem posed by the Lauber illustration about the Trojan War is simple. Either the fashion is contemporary with the creation of illustration, which would mean that a houppelande with very dagged sleeves was still hot in Haguenau between 1445-1455, or the illustration is anachronistic, which seems more probable. And if Lauber can fake it, pretty much any other artist can as well. Which goes double for the VMs.
As usual, some things in the VMs are not easily and clearly described. Regarding the edges of the VMs sleeves, their variations are more subtle than Lauber with those big loops and sleeves to the floor. Others know more about this than I do. In the post above #91 the lady's blue garment appears to be an ermine-line 'cloak' - if that's the correct term. I don't think there is the suggestion that the VMs female is wearing and ermine-line houppelande. Maybe it's lace or artistic ambiguity.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Mark Knowles - 29-11-2022
One thing I do agree on is the need for more significant data and I will endeavour to collect more.
I believe that data is most likely to be found in the Lauber era I.e. post 1427.
For that reason I will not dwell too much on the current disagreements as it will distract from doing that.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 29-11-2022
That inspires the question of *where* the data is most likely to be found? And the clear answer from Koen's list of references is Paris. So, why Paris? Clearly this would have something to do with the scale of manuscript production, and also depend on their rate of survival.
The collection of data should continue when new information is found. For the VMs Gemini woman's sleeve, the question is how dagged is 'dagged'? And for the man, how tight is the cuff and how loose is the sleeve? Can the sleeve be too tight or too loose? Is this like the investigation of the cardinal's galero? The definition is quite specific, but the actual depictions in medieval illustrations are pretty diverse. In fact, diversity of appearance seems to be a predominant factor in medieval art, even when the scene depicted is a single, specific event. One of my favorites is Eleazar and the elephant. There is so much variation. [Tagged as 'Eleazar Avaran'.]
The M*M site already had a tag for 'sleeves'. I've added a few more.
What's the opinion on these sleeves?
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RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Mark Knowles - 29-11-2022
(29-11-2022, 07:17 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't know if that one would count, it looks plain weird.
This highlights a point though. Koen has written about other fashions that he says the absence of which in the Zodiac drawings point to a pre-1430, but from what I can tell he hasn't really specified.
He says: "The hulk-look became the norm after bag-pipes went out of style. It’s easy to recognize and was avoided for this study."
It would be interesting to see data and examples of the "hulk-look" to verify this claim. It should certainly not have been avoid as part of the study, if it really is the alternative to the baggy sleeves.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Mark Knowles - 29-11-2022
(28-11-2022, 09:19 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My impression is that the 1400-1430 timeframe already includes a certain buffer to allow these fashions to go out of style.
It would help to have the original quotes or sources for statements like "1400-1430" or 1420s or around 1400 to around 1430, so one can know who made them and potentially find out what evidence lead them to make that statement and what precisely they are asserting.
And if there are examples from before 1400 is it wise to exclude them?
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 29-11-2022
The 'Book of the Queen' illustration is from a myth about Apollo and his 'less than sunny' disposition. There are not that many examples of deeply dagged clothes for men. Lauber has some, but it's not VMs.
Provenance is what provenance is, though revision can happen. First collect the evidence; then make the exclusions.
Koen's list of manuscripts already has two pre-1400 references; both Italian. In the first decade (1400-1410) there are a variety of provenance sources. After that, however, from 1410 on, Parisian manuscripts overwhelm all other locations until it comes to those from Haguenau.
The nature of the evidence profile is going to determine the nature of the conclusion. Parisian evidence indicates an end before 1430. So, that would be valid - in Paris. Paris was occupied by the English and their Burgundian allies. Special conditions may apply. What was happening in the other locations?
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Juan_Sali - 29-11-2022
(29-11-2022, 10:39 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After that, however, from 1410 on, Parisian manuscripts overwhelm all other locations until it comes to those from Haguenau.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was an anonymous illuminator who began his career in the late 1300s in a prominent workshop in Bologna. His name comes from the fifteen historiated initials he painted in a book of hours , now in Brussels, commissioned by Jean, duc de Berry.
The Master's career developed parallel to the growth of international workshops active in book production in the late Middle Ages. After enjoying a successful career in Bologna for more than a decade, he moved to the Ile-de-France, where he adapted the more pastel and subtle colors of French court illumination. To the many manuscripts that he decorated in France, he introduced not only stocky Bolognese figure types but also an exuberant style of border decoration teeming with large acanthus leaves, frolicking putti, and amusing zoomorphic figures. The mix of Italian and French elements in this artist's work epitomizes the character of European court painting around 1400, appropriately called the International style.
RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - R. Sale - 30-11-2022
One illustration provenanced to Bologna 1390-1399.
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RE: Are the 1430s the most likely date range for the Zodiac drawings? - Aga Tentakulus - 30-11-2022
Wide sleeves, famous book, same region.
From the year 1175. And it coincides with the fashion of the 12th century.
Some of this draughtswoman's work quickly becomes familiar.
Not necessarily in the VM, but in many other books.
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