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+--- Thread: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? (/thread-3670.html)
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - Linda - 24-10-2021
(14-10-2021, 10:39 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Please identify your six of seven various objects.
I see four quasi-tower-like structures and above that an area combining blue paint and the typical, asterisk star icons found in many other places. It's interesting to note that this area is 'fastened' (like a piece of fabric) to the thinner 'towers' at the far side
The thinner towers? They seem to be similar size to me, the round sections drawn a little smaller since they are farther back, although the perspective doesnt seem quite right, perhaps they are taller (or thinner is still possible, i guess). The left back one seems to show its bottom almost next to the one at far left. Perhaps that bottom piece is considered by some to be the seventh? The back one on the right doesnt seem to have a delineated bottom section although i think it is implied by the line down to the one in front of it. Overall i think there are six, of similar sizing, with some problems of perspective.
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - Koen G - 24-10-2021
I agree there are six "towers", but they clearly vary in thickness.
For the tower on the left, the narrow part is about 67% of the width of the globular section, while for the one on the right, the narrow section is only 25% of the width of the globe.
I didn't comment too much before since I didn't want to steer the vote, but I think we can also say that some of the objects are more tower-like while others are more vessel-like. The one on the right is the most like a vessel, with a foot for placing it on a table and a ringed stem for holding it in hand. But it also has some properties of a tower, most notably that there is no clear way of opening it and accessing the contents. The one on the left has the opposite problem: it stands broad and firm like a tower, but appears to have a lid so it could be opened like lidded chalice.
Mark brought up ciboria, which are excellent parallels. Look at this c. 1400 example and you will see what I mean:
![[Image: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsothebys-brightspot.s3...wjcm-1.jpg]](https://sothebys-md.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/774275c/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1567x2000+0+0/resize/1024x1307!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsothebys-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fmedia-desk%2F75%2F8d%2F7ad9d5f24b36a6536f5e04e6e445%2Fl21231-bwjcm-1.jpg)
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The lid checks out with the left tower but not with the right. The lower section checks out with the right tower but not with the left.
I voted 'both vessels and towers'
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - Mark Knowles - 24-10-2021
(24-10-2021, 04:10 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark brought up ciboria, which are excellent parallels. Look at this c. 1400 example and you will see what I mean:
...
Unfortunately it's a bit outside my price range.
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - DONJCH - 24-10-2021
I looked up "ciborium": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The word is also used for the large canopy over the altar of a medieval church.
Interesting in relation to the clothlike starry field in the VM - perhaps another visual pun?
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - Pardis Motiee - 11-11-2021
Seven pillars of Bukhara citadel resembling seven stars of Ursa Major.
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - nablator - 08-04-2024
What is this? Unusual shape for a pigeon loft... I can't read the text. It must be in one of the fables of Ulrich Bonerius's Der Edelstein.
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RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - Aga Tentakulus - 08-04-2024
Sure, it has nothing to do with the picture. The text still belongs to the previous page.
"als die Frösche hant getan, des müssentz noch in Sorgen stan"
When the frogs did it, they must still be in trouble.
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - nablator - 08-04-2024
(08-04-2024, 01:03 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sure, it has nothing to do with the picture. The text still belongs to the previous page.Right. The text of the fable is under the illustration, not above.
"als die Frösche hant getan, des müssentz noch in Sorgen stan"
When the frogs did it, they must still be in trouble.
I found a translation (not helpful to understand the peculiar illustration):
Fable no. 26: Of a Harrier and Pigeons
On evil constables
Once a big fight broke out
which deeply upset many birds,
as the following fable tells us.
The harrier had announced war
5 against the pigeons, which created many problems for them
because they were afraid they might have to die.
They could not find any safety
from the harrier, so they suffered great pain
and anxiety; in their hearts
10 they were terrified.
They all got together in a council
and they all agreed
that they would not be able to survive
without a constable, which was, as they determined,
15 the hawk which was very powerful.
It would certainly defeat the harrier
and would help the pigeons in their suffering
so that they would not all die.
When the hawk had become their constable,
20 it quickly fell back to its nature
and displayed its aggression:
the pigeons were all lost,
none of them could survive.
The one who was supposed to be their protector
25 was their enemy. The sheep are lost
when the wolf becomes the shepherd.
The harrier’s announcement of its military threat was better
for the pigeons than the hatred of their own constable.
When people want to achieve something
30 and keep the goal in mind,
then they will hardly fail in that,
whether they are women or men.
To him who must make a choice between two evil persons,
let me give this advice
35 that he chose (this will be to his advantage)
the one who will cause less harm.
When the one is chosen as the protector
who destroys the people then,
both women and men will be lost.
40 No one can protect himself from that person.
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - tavie - 08-04-2024
But what did the frogs do?
RE: What do you think the six objects in the central rosette represent most likely? - nablator - 08-04-2024
(08-04-2024, 01:18 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But what did the frogs do?
Fable no. 25: Of Frogs Who Wanted to Have a King
On freedom and subjugation
A pond was filled with frogs
who enjoyed their lives as was natural for them.
They had water and a field.
5 They were completely free,
they did not have a lord among themselves
and they only wanted to enjoy freedom
in their being, in their lives, and in their possessions.
But they could not stand the freedom.
10 They began to lament all the time
that they could not live without a king.
God Jupiter should give them a king
who would have power over them.
Then the god Jupiter laughed
15 and was quiet again, but they began anew
to beg the god asking
for a king. Then Jupiter hurled
a piece of wood into the pond:
it was supposed to be their king.
20 They were so scared that they feared they could not survive,
they all fled quickly.
No sound came out of their throats.
Then the first strike of fortune occurred,
the wooden log rested there quietly,
25 it did not move by the width of a hair.
The frogs noticed that
and could not resist
until they sat on the king.
Yet they screamed as loudly as before:
30 [their lament was that] they would be miserable forever
unless they would be given a king
who would be able to govern them well.
When Jupiter heard that screaming
he sent a stork to the pond.
35 The stork who was then supposed to be their king
did not let anyone of them live.
Its beak was open, its stomach was empty,
it swallowed [virtually] all of them, which pleased it much.
The frogs’ lament was great,
40 they were much dismayed about that king.
They said: “Lord, rescue us from this sorrow,
help us, otherwise we will all die,
it does not let any one of us live.
We would like to be free of a king.”
45 Jupiter said: “That cannot be!
You have filled my ears
with requests, now I have given you
a king who will govern your lives,
and you will have to be its subjects.
50 If it so desires, it will not let any one of you live,
and you have deserved that.”
He who can be a lord should not be a servant!
He who has what is sufficient for him,
has enough, and fares well.
55 He who wants to be his own lord
should follow my advice if he wants to survive:
if he wants to keep inner peace and honor,
he should not subject himself to another person
and keep his free spirit.
60 When he feels happy, he should be content
and should not desire something
which might make him fail,
as the frogs did [to themselves]
which since then had to face sorrow.