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1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Printable Version

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1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - byatan - 18-07-2021

I understand that during the time period the ms was written, it is well documented that crypto was in common use for general government written communications that might foreseeably be subject to inspection by one's adversaries.

This has the implication that knowledge of the existence and use of crypto, if not of the specific methods themselves, would have been reasonably widespread beyond those who actually used or computed crypto for official purposes. I don't know how well this is documented; namely: how much evidence is there for the use of cryptography outside of government in the early renaissance?

What are some estimates of the contemporary distribution of literacy in terms of profession?

If today's humans are any indication, some of those with writing ability would have had the tendency to create or explore various written puzzles. Crypto is an obvious option here. What kind of written puzzles did the literate engage in?


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Aga Tentakulus - 18-07-2021

Example>>>
And what also annoys me is when you open a new section for everything just when you want to write something.


Reading educates.

@Koen
I have my beer and I don't care to see the truth.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - davidjackson - 18-07-2021

Now then Aga, play nicely please, beer or no beer.

(18-07-2021, 01:24 AM)byatan Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I understand that during the time period the ms was written, it is well documented that crypto was in common use for general government written communications that might foreseeably be subject to inspection by one's adversaries.
The Italian city states were using ciphers, not necessarily cryptography. By the end of the century a lot of governments were using ciphers; at the beginning, almost nobody.

(18-07-2021, 01:24 AM)byatan Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This has the implication that knowledge of the existence and use of crypto, if not of the specific methods themselves, would have been reasonably widespread beyond those who actually used or computed crypto for official purposes. I don't know how well this is documented; namely: how much evidence is there for the use of cryptography outside of government in the early renaissance?

16th century, lots, Before 1450's, very little.

This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lays early ciphers out quite well.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - bi3mw - 19-07-2021

If one assumes that the VMS was encoded using known methods of the early 15th century, then the mystery would certainly have been solved long ago. It is more likely that instead of an (essentially) simple substitution, a fundamentally different, "innovative" system was used. That one could also deal "creatively" with the text composition, Ramon LLull proved with his Ars Brevis ( 1308 ) / Ars Magna already before. One can argue about the sense of such constructs, but it worked. So it is quite conceivable that with a combinatorial, logical "machine" coded text was generated, which was simply ahead of its time in the production. Perhaps the method is not so complicated, but it certainly does not correspond to today's encryption systems.
It is also conceivable that for decryption, unlike today, an active participation of the reader is necessary ( interpretation ), so the "machine" does not work by itself, if you know the rules.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Mark Knowles - 19-07-2021

(19-07-2021, 12:07 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If one assumes that the VMS was encoded using known methods of the early 15th century, then the mystery would certainly have been solved long ago.


What do you mean by "known methods"?

I think it is a question as to "known by who". Different people know different things and I, personally, am always on the search to make contact with people who know or know of things that I don't when it comes to this topic.

I think generally when we talk about "known" things when it comes to Voynich research it is like saying Columbus discovered America when Native Americans were there all along. Often people outside Voynich research know things that Voynich researchers don't.

(19-07-2021, 12:07 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It is more likely that instead of an (essentially) simple substitution, a fundamentally different, "innovative" system was used.


What exactly do you mean by an "(essentially) simple substitution"?

(19-07-2021, 12:07 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That one could also deal "creatively" with the text composition, Ramon LLull proved with his Ars Brevis ( 1308 ) / Ars Magna already before.

It is interesting that you bring up Ramon Llull. His work is certainly an interesting line of inquiry, though it is hard to see how it could be a precursor to the Voynich cipher.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - bi3mw - 19-07-2021

(19-07-2021, 03:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you mean by "known methods"?
(19-07-2021, 03:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you mean by "simple substitution"?

I refer to the paper of @Nickpelling ( see above ) respectively to the presented ciphers of Simeone de Crema and Michele Steno. As I see it, these are ciphers that essentially simply perform a letter substitution in the alphabet.

(19-07-2021, 03:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is interesting that you bring up Ramon Llull. His work is certainly an interesting line of inquiry, though it is hard to see how it could be a precursor to the Voynich cipher.

I would not call Llull`s work a precursor. I am more interested in the fact that he developed a method with which one can form meaningful sentences according to a logical system. I think it is quite possible that the VMS contains a text created in a similar way. To encrypt the whole thing would be the next step and the innovative thing. It is conceivable that fixed terms were encoded individually and then used.
Somehow, then, plenty of additional "filler" would have to be built in.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Mark Knowles - 19-07-2021

(19-07-2021, 05:12 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(19-07-2021, 03:20 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What do you mean by "simple substitution"?

I refer to the paper of @Nickpelling ( see above ) respectively to the presented ciphers of Simeone de Crema and Michele Steno. As I see it, these are ciphers that essentially simply perform a letter substitution in the alphabet.


Nick's paper is a very good entry point to the subject.

If you want a bit more depth on the early 15th century then you could look at:

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If you want further depth then there are other sources that I can refer you to.

I should say that the Steno cipher key does a bit more than perform a letter substitution in the alphabet as it has substitutions for whole words as well as nulls.

From my research it seems that all the techniques used in diplomatic ciphers, that I know of, over the next century were in place by 1424.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - R. Sale - 19-07-2021

(19-07-2021, 05:53 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I should say that the Steno cipher key does a bit more than perform a letter substitution in the alphabet as it has substitutions for whole words as well as nulls.

Yes, and perhaps you could say more.  The process of letter substitution is one method of cypher creation. The use of nulls is another method and so is the use of codewords another method of cypher trickery - with lot's of room for expansion and alteration.

So, in the example of Steno, this is not really a 'single' cypher method of great complexity. Instead it is a combination of three different methods, multiple layers, not that complex separately, but each has the capacity for idiosyncratic variations. Seriously, twelve nulls. If the nulls are known, scratch them out to start; and if not, what then? And this was in 1411.

The security of the cypher is achieved not through the difficulty of the methodology per se, rather through the combination of several methodologies, the choice of those methodologies used and the capacity for variation within each of the methods.

How could the VMs be read without a cypher key? See enclosed instructions (if still intact). Disguise is built through a combination of more basic methods. There is a visual code, a system of interpretation that is built into the illustrations. The nebuly line is a cosmic boundary as it is seen in the VMs cosmos according to the artist's usage, and to the investigator's provisional rediscovery. The VMs cosmos is a combination of an altered Oresme cosmos on the inside and a modified Shirakatsi diagram on the outside. Intentional disguise through combination. The VMs mermaid is the Luxembourg version of Melusine disguised in the sort of illustration seen in Harley 334 fig. 19 and more fully explained it certain illustrations from copies by Lauber. These posses a certain bestiary connection for sea-monsters and for fish, and the have no hint of individual personality or of their thighs, as the VMs mermaid clearly does.

Counting in Steno's system, there are 20 letters, two are not used (F and H). Two are duplicated (U and V). Seventeen letters are used. And the total number of glyph/symbols (I believe) is 43.

17 matches the 4 x 17 sequence
43 matches the undulations of the VMs and Oresme cosmic boundary

Sure, accidents happen, or perhaps trickery.


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Aga Tentakulus - 19-07-2021

       

Just to remind you .
What is the situation with language use in the region?
Here, just as an example, the word " dort" "there".
These are only variants from German-speaking Switzerland.
But the language area goes from Strasbourg to Trieste, and from Vienna to the Matterhorn.
You can't imagine how many possibilities there are in the language alone.
I grew up here, but even for me a single word is not enough. To understand it properly you need the whole sentence. That way it can be understood well.
Over the whole area there are about 220 dialects. I haven't even mentioned the Italian (Romance) dialects yet.
I need to know where to look, otherwise I have no chance.

The link where you can try it yourself with some words.
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@Mark, I wouldn't be surprised if you've stumbled across the right key or application a few times, but didn't notice it.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)


RE: 1400s amateur crypto and human puzzle tendencies - Mark Knowles - 20-07-2021

(19-07-2021, 10:47 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Mark, I wouldn't be surprised if you've stumbled across the right key or application a few times, but didn't notice it.
I have certainly seen a lot of early 15th century ciphers and not studied many of them in nearly as much detail as I would have liked. However there are also big gaps in the cipher history, that I know of, from this period. I would love to see a Milanese cipher key from between the years 1425 and 1444.