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+--- Thread: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level (/thread-3537.html)
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:32 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are exact quotes from Rene, himself, posted on the Ninja forum. I haven't rephrased them at all. If you can clarify what you mean that would be great.
You posted those verbatim as the sole content of your reply to Rene's post without specifying that those are quotes (the latter you did only by editing your post 15 minutes since). Hope that's clear enough.
Once again, to everybody: flaming is not welcome here. Critique is highly welcome, flaming is highly unwelcome. One can always find ways to express one's objections or suggestions in a polite fashion.
Thanks and enough of that, I think.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Mark Knowles - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 02:04 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(27-04-2021, 01:32 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These are exact quotes from Rene, himself, posted on the Ninja forum. I haven't rephrased them at all. If you can clarify what you mean that would be great.
You posted those verbatim as the sole content of your reply to Rene's post without specifying that those are quotes (the latter you did only by editing your post 15 minutes since). Hope that's clear enough.
I thought Rene would recognise the quotes, but I then decided I ought to clarify for others reading the post the context.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - ReneZ - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:46 PM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder can this approach somehow explain LAAFU?
Not really, and it is indeed one of the problems. Note that we don't yet understand what are the characteristics of LAAFU exactly. The only aspect of it that has been addressed is the more frequent appearance of m at ends of lines. The behaviour of f and p is a much more serious problem.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - MarcoP - 28-04-2021
Hi Rene,
thank you for sharing this paper, which I find interesting, in particular for the "cipher" hypotheses. As you pointed out, there are Voynichese features that cannot easily fit with the ideas you discuss, but I would be curious to understand how close to Voynichese a text encoded in this way would be.
A question about what you write at p.13-14:
Rene Wrote:The question remains, how such a method could have been used to encode a meaningful text. A set of wheels as described here generates a list of words that could be considered an enumeration system, simply counting from 1 to some large number N. Hypothetically, someone could have generated a word list or dictionary, to translate words in some existing language to this system. This may seem unlikely from a modern viewpoint, but that is quite subjective. This possibility should not be discarded just yet.
The choice of three wheels with 24 different entries each also allows other possibilities. The number 24 represents the number of characters in the Greek alphabet, but also Latin (when equating I with J and U with V) and Italian (when not considering k or w). A text in any of these languages could have been split into groups of three characters, where each character would then be mapped to a Voynich word fragment according to the three wheels. This is of course highly speculative.
I understand the enumeration / nomenclator system, which is similar to the mod2 system you discussed on this forum.
On the other hand, I am not sure I understand the three wheels system. Is this equivalent to three tables, each being used for encoding one of the items in the groups of three characters?
For instance, the words "a bad cadet" are split into groups of three characters ignoring spaces:
aba dca det
Each group is encoded using the three tables, mapping each group into a Voynichese word made of prefix (Table 1), stemp (Table 2) and suffix (Table 3).
Am I interpreting this idea correctly?
I attach a rough example where the entries in the tables are not based on anything accurate: the function is just to illustrate the process.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - ReneZ - 28-04-2021
Hi Marco,
your example shows exactly what I meant. Thanks for this clarification!
Your example also follows the essentials of Stolfi's word grammar, and this helps in generating realistic Voynichese words.
As I wrote, this is highly speculative, and my very strong feeling is that things aren't exactly as simple as this.
However, it is an example of all of the following:
- a verbose cipher
- it generates the word structure
- this is an approach that has not been analysed in the last 100 years, to the best of my knowledge
- it could work for many different languages, and generate realistic Voynichese text for each of them.
The main problem of the inexplicable behaviour of f and p remains.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 28-04-2021
(28-04-2021, 08:18 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The main problem of the inexplicable behaviour of f and p remains.
Not the only one, though. There are the sequential word repetitions, the label morphology, and more...
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - ReneZ - 28-04-2021
(28-04-2021, 10:15 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not the only one, though. There are the sequential word repetitions, the label morphology, and more...
The topic of the paper is individual word generation, so the (problematic) issue of word repetitions, and lack of longer repeating sequences is outside. Even the question whether the apparent words in the MS are equivalent with words in some plain text is left open, and that is a decisive question for these two issues.
Finally, even the question whether the text in the MS is meaningful or not is left open, and that is decisive for the question about the scope of apparent words in the MS.
With respect to label morphology, I am not aware of any 'issue' (i.e. problem).
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 28-04-2021
(28-04-2021, 11:39 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The topic of the paper is individual word generation, so the (problematic) issue of word repetitions, and lack of longer repeating sequences is outside.
If so, then it would be more correct to speak of generation of the VMS-like vocabulary, not the VMS-like text. Because text is naturally a certain sequence of words, not just an unoredered set thereof.
(28-04-2021, 11:39 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With respect to label morphology, I am not aware of any 'issue' (i.e. problem).
I mean e.g. the abundance of "o plus gallows" as label-start.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - R. Sale - 28-04-2021
Label morphology = vord structure, I presume. Is it throughout the text generally, or just certain terms apparently used as names or other designations such as seen in specific locations, like the cosmic and zodiac sections?
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 28-04-2021
(28-04-2021, 05:46 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Label morphology = vord structure, I presume. Is it throughout the text generally, or just certain terms apparently used as names or other designations such as seen in specific locations, like the cosmic and zodiac sections?
When we speak of labels, we of course speak of specific localtions. What I had secifically in mind were labels in Zodiac and star charts.