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+--- Thread: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level (/thread-3537.html)
The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - ReneZ - 27-04-2021
In 2004 Gordon Rugg published a paper in which he proposed that the Voynich MS text is likely to be meaningless, and could have been composed by an alternative application of a so-called Cardan Grille, namely by moving a piece of cardboard with holes over a large table of word fragments, and writing down the words that thus appear.
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RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Pardis Motiee - 27-04-2021
I think repetitions are in the writings. But the alternate could have been created with mind rather than cardboard. Also structure of the repetitions is in a row. Lets show one similar to Voynich, if I want to say anything similar in English: patora padayra pais tueb sdab y. In this example it is in a row and alternates are part of words that should be omitted.
1. Remove pa
tora dayra is tueb sdab y
2. Remove ra
to day is tueb sdab y
3. Remove b
to day is tue sda y
4. Change the reading frame
Today is Tuesday
Also if the manuscript is meaningless what are the meanings we get?
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Mark Knowles - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 08:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In 2004 Gordon Rugg published a paper in which he proposed that the Voynich MS text is likely to be meaningless, and could have been composed by an alternative application of a so-called Cardan Grille, namely by moving a piece of cardboard with holes over a large table of word fragments, and writing down the words that thus appear.
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It would be of great interest to have a historical example of this.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]That should be more useful than just philosophising about it.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif](The above are quote from Rene Zandbergen regarding a historical example of a diplomatic cipher which I subsequently provided and yet could also be applied to his Cardan Grille theory.)[/font]
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 27-04-2021
If I remember correctly, one of arguments against Rugg's theory was that the Cardan grille really post-dates the Voynich. But again, the manuscript was carbon-dated only after Gordon Rugg published his first article in 2004 (at least one more followed since then)
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Mark Knowles - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:04 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.one of arguments against Rugg's theory was that the Cardan grille really post-dates the Voynich. But again, the manuscript was carbon-dated only after Gordon Rugg published his first article in 2004 (at least one more followed since then)
My point is that one should reply the same standards to all theories.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 27-04-2021
Ah, did not realise you're talking about Rene's paper, not about the Rugg's theory. Haven't yet had time to read it through.
Anyway, let's involve no flaming please, no need for nitpicking, we stand for cultivated discussion.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Mark Knowles - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:17 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, let's involve no flaming please, no need for nitpicking, we stand for cultivated discussion.
If my comments regarding Rene's paper are nitpicking then his comments about my theory must logically also be nitpicking.
Personally I don't view Rene asking me about a historical example as nitpicking and I don't think me asking him about a historical example is also nitpicking.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Anton - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I don't view Rene asking me about a historical example as nitpicking and I don't think me asking him about a historical example is also nitpicking.
Neither do I, what's nitpicking instead is the exact way you've put it.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - Mark Knowles - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 01:30 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(27-04-2021, 01:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I don't view Rene asking me about a historical example as nitpicking and I don't think me asking him about a historical example is also nitpicking.
Neither do I, what's nitpicking instead is the exact way you've put it.
These are exact quotes from Rene, himself, posted on the Ninja forum. I haven't rephrased them at all. If you can clarify what you mean that would be great.
RE: The Cardan grille approach to the Voynich MS taken to the next level - DONJCH - 27-04-2021
(27-04-2021, 08:09 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Read more here:
I read this with great interest. I wonder can this approach somehow explain LAAFU?
To me that effect could be more indicative of coming to the end of a page, rather than a wheel.