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+--- Thread: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? (/thread-3534.html)
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RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - Anton - 23-04-2021
(23-04-2021, 04:37 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Prague is considerably to the West of Vienna.
Yes, in fact these definitions are more political than geographical.
(23-04-2021, 04:24 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To be precise, I meant Czech Republic, Hungary etc.
When one speaks of Eastern Europe, I think of Moscow in the first place
RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - ReneZ - 23-04-2021
(23-04-2021, 05:37 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I especially wonder about your opinion on this matter too, Rene.
I really can't claim any knowledge about the signs that would point to the geographical origin of the MS.
When people write "German" this includes much of Central Europe, e.g. Bohemia and Silezia, which are nowadays considered Eastern Europe.
I prefer to go by the opinions of the people who have such knowledge, and for many years I have seen indications pointing both to Northern Italy and to Central Europe. I don't think that these are mutually exclusive.
It is true that there is a great treasure of manuscripts preserved in (nowadays) Eastern Europe, e.g. in Krakau, Budapest and St.Petersburg, that are not digitised. Many of these originate from more Western regions.
I do think that it is safe to assume that the Voynich MS originates from the general Northern Italian / Central European area. This includes areas that are now in Switzerland or the Czech Republic.
RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - R. Sale - 23-04-2021
Geographical origin is like nailing jello to the wall. Does the physical location matter so much? Isn't the ideological background of the author(s), as revealed in the illustrations, going to be more informative than the name of some location? Besides which, the information contained in the VMs comes from multiple sources in different locations and was probably gathered over years, if not several decades.
If the clear representation of the VMs cosmos with a nebuly line does anything, it provides a starting point. If the comparative association with BNF Fr. 565 is accepted, then that starting point is in Paris from about 1410. And this is a date that coincides with VMs C-14 dates. There are several other examples where the primary era of reference appears to be a time approximating 1410-1440, though the actual time of VMs creation could be subsequent - but where??
And for those who think they might have seen the Golden Fleece, don't be afraid to say, "Duchy of Burgundy!"
RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - cvetkakocj@rogers.com - 15-08-2021
I am surprised how little attention this discussion was given to this topic, just as I am surprised that the Austrian researchers never explored Slovenian (Windish) language, which in the Middle ages was definitely spoken in Carinthia and Carniola, part of Hungary and part of Northern Italy (where it was called Sciavo).
Up to the 15th century, Carinthian princes and dukes were installed in colourful Slovenian ritual and in Slovenian language, as described in Saschen Spiegel and other sources. Slovenians had the right to defend themselves in Slovenian language, and they had the right to practice Slavic law where women had more rights. The last duke to be installed in Slovenian language was Ernest the Iron, the Son of Habsburg Leopold II of Austria and Viridis Visconti, a daughter of Bernabo Visconti, Lord of Milan. (Viridis Visconti died in Slovenia and is burried in the Cistercian monastery in Stična. Beautiful medieval manuscripts were produced there. The son of Ernest the Iron, who succeeded him as the Duke of Carinthia, was Frederick, who became Holy Roman Empire.
The language spoken in the present day Slovenia, was called Carniolan. Carniola used to be Carinthian march which was elevated to Duchy by Rudolf IV, when he proclaimed himself the Archduke of Austria. Slovenian was also spoken in parts of Styria, where in the 15th century, the Slovenian Counts of Cilli (Celje) were competing with the Habsburg Dynasty for the dominance. Slovenian was also spoken in large area of the Patriarchate of Aquileia.
Carthusians were very active in the region of present day Slovenia. In Seitz (Žiče), first Carthusian monastery outside Italy and France was established in the 12th century. At the time of the Western Schism, it replaced Charthreuse and function as Grand Carthusia for over 6 decades.. In 1415, the four Slovenian Carthusian monasteries formed a Brotherhood, which means cooperation in promoting Slovenian language as the calls for liturgy in national languages was becoming stronger. This Charterhouse had second largest library in Europe at the time VM was being written. Close to this monastery, the second oldest apothecary in Europe was located.
Because most of the nobility in Slovenia was foreign (Because of the intermarriages, the secular language of administration was German), peasants and commoners spoke Slovenian. Those under the religious authority of the Patriarchate of Aquileia were allowed to use Glagolitza in liturgy, but since Glagolitic priests were mostly Croatian, it would be reasonable to assume that there was a need for written Slovenian language. Only a few pages of Slovenian text written in Latin exists.
And for those who thing this region is not important, I would also like to mention the Luxemburg-Celje Connection, since Sigismund of Luxemburg was married to Barbara of Celje.
When I started researching VM in 2016, there was very few scanned documents and manuscripts available, but now, more material is available. It is also true that most of the manuscripts produced in Slovenian monasteries had ended in foreign archives.
These are just a few ideas that clearly show Rhenish-Austrian-Bohemian-Italian - Slovenian (Slavic) connection.
RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - Aga Tentakulus - 16-08-2021
I know what you mean.
It is interesting to note the spread of Slavic along the rivers and valleys. Personally, I still consider the Duchy of Carniola. But I don't go further east, because the clues get lost here.
As for the old writings for comparison, I only know 10 books, 3 of which are digitised. Which doesn't exactly make research in this region easy. But I hope that they will now really get started with the digitisation.
Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
RE: Are Eastern and/or Central Europe a relatively blind spot? - Ranceps - 16-08-2021
In Czechia, a lot of digitalisation of libraries came with the first wave of pandemic, so the students could still do research on theses from home while the libraries were closed.
I remember reading an article about how they digitised over a million of books just during the pandemic. One can wonder, how long it will take to digitise the oldest documents as well.
Maybe, since the MS was here for an unknown while, some clues will pop up.