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+--- Thread: €400 Reward (/thread-3533.html)
€400 Reward - Mark Knowles - 22-04-2021
I have collected a large number of copies of diplomatic ciphers for the early 15th century. So far I have a gap that I am very keen to fill. I have an example of a Milanese diplomatic cipher from 1424 and another one from 1445, however I have no example between these 2 dates. I am endeavouring to find such an example by my own means, but this is another avenue as someone else might know something that I don't.
I will clarify what I mean by a Milanese cipher. Essentially what I am interested in is ciphers designed by the chancellery of the Duchy of Milan, i.e. ciphers designed by employees of government of Milan on behalf of that government. So what I am looking for is an enciphered letter or cipher key for communication with the Milanese State. So this could be an enciphered letter to or from a representative of the government of Milan. It could be a cipher key used for communication by or with an employee of the government of Milan. This would be incredibly valuable for my research hence the sum of money.
I am happy to give this to someone who can give me a lead which will take me to such a cipher, though I would be interested in something much more specific than "try the internet" or "try the BNF"(without a more specific reference).
I have a couple of specific references to ciphers from that period, but I think none of those survive, although I will do my best to follow them up.
Any early 15th ciphers may on inspection turn out to be Milanese even if at first they don't obviously appear so.
I know it is unorthodox to offer such rewards and anyway I doubt that anyone would be able to find such a cipher even if I offered 10 times what I have said, which I have no intention of doing so. Frankly given the amount of effort involved by me in hunting for such things €200 is really good value for me.
I hope offering an amount of money will at least attract some attention which otherwise I fear this thread would not get.
RE: €200 Reward - Daniele - 30-04-2021
I would suggest contacting the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which holds the archives of the chancellery of the Visconti Duchy (1395–1447) and the subsequent Sforza Duchy (1450–1499). The Sforza chancellery made extensive use of ciphers for correspondence (see source below), and I’ve personally seen some of these letters at the Archive. It is possible that the Archive holds similar enciphered letters by the previous Visconti chancellery.
The relevant archival fonds for the time period you are interested in should be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contains many digitized letters, but alas only from 1448 onwards.
You may contact the State Archive via email or phone:
- Email: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Phone: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Cerioni, Lydia (1970). La diplomazia sforzesca nella seconda metà del Quattrocento e i suoi cifrari segreti. Il Centro di Ricerca Ed., Rome.
RE: €200 Reward - Mark Knowles - 30-04-2021
(30-04-2021, 01:16 PM)Daniele Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would suggest contacting the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which holds the archives of the chancellery of the Visconti Duchy (1395–1447) and the subsequent Sforza Duchy (1450–1499).
Dear Daniele
Thank you so much for your reply it is very kind of you!
Yes, I have had contact with the State Archives in Milan. However I have not yet had the opportunity to visit the Milan archive in person. As I am sure that you can imagine this is a line of enquiry that I have explored a bit.
The difficulty comes from the fact that in 1447 the Castello di Porta Giova, which was located where Castello Sforzesco is currently located, was burned to the ground by those who wished to make the Duchy of Milan a Republic. As it was the Ambrosian Republic only lasted for 3 years before Francesco Sforza became Duke. The Visconti chancellery was in the Castello di Porta Giova and in particular the cipher records were kept there, so almost all of the ciphers were destroyed in the fire.(I only know of enciphered letters from 1445 to or from the Ambassador of Rome, which I suspect were not in Milan at the time of the fire, though I may be mistaken.)
In the Milanese Archivist Luigi Osio's 3 volumes entitled "Documenti Diplomatici Tratti Dagli Archivj Milanese" there is various correspondence from surviving from the Visconti chancellery. However there is only one reference that I have seen to a enciphered letter prior to 1445 and that dates from 1427. However it appears that the original enciphered letter no longer survives, though I do intend to look into it just in case.
I have an electronic copy of both volumes of Lydia Cerioni, which I scanned in full; I couldn't buy a copy, only borrow one. If you are interested get in touch.
Given the destruction of cipher records in Milan I have focused on Milanese ciphers in other state archives like Mantua and Florence. There is a cipher key used for correspondence with Milan in the Gonzaga cipher ledger in Mantua. There is a cipher key generated by the archivist Abbot Gabrielli from enciphered letters from 1424 in the Florence State Archive. In Giovanni Sercambi's book "Le croniche di Luccha" he has some Milanese ciphers from 1397. This is all that I know of. There is a reference to a Milanese enciphered letter intercepted by the Papacy from 1430, however it is doubtful that it survives and if so where about in the Vatican Archives to look is unclear and anyway it may have been given to the intended recipient as this created a diplomatic incident. I am waiting on an enciphered letter from 1421 in the Genoa Diocesan Archive(the archive will reopen in the summer) between Abbot Matteo de Carretto and Archbishop Pileo de Marini as it appears that de Carretto was working on the behalf of the Visconti, but this could easily be a Papal cipher and not a Visconti cipher.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I think the best bet, though I could be wrong, [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]is to find enciphered letters sent from Milan for this period in archives outside of Milan(though there could be something in the Diocesan Archi[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]ves of Milan). There could also conceivably be cipher keys used for communication with Milan in other archives. Given the sheer number of archives not only in Italy, but also in Europe that is a mammoth task.[/font]
May I ask how you are acquainted with the subject?
If you or anyone else has any more ideas then they would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again!
Mark
RE: €200 Reward - Mark Knowles - 31-12-2021
Given that it is Christmas and New Year I thought I would increase the prize to €400. This is for Milanese ciphers(see original post).
And a €10 prize for information which leads to the location of ANY diplomatic cipher, so that I can see it, that I am not already familiar with that dates from the period that the Voynich is dated i.e. 1404-1438. I obviously can't list all the ciphers I know of here as it is a very long list, so you will just have to take my word for it as to whether I know it or not, though potentially Koen or David could verify it.(I hope to extend this to include non-diplomatic ciphers when my research into them is concluded.) If someone identifies a collection of cipher keys or enciphered letters in the same location then if they are a large number I will have to discuss an appropriate sum e.g. if someone locates a cipher ledger with 30 keys in it I may be happy to pay only €150 for that information rather than €300(30 x £10). I will try my best to be fair and reasonable without breaking my bank account.
(For the €10 amount it is not necessary that they are Milanese they can literally be ANY diplomatic ciphers from that era.)
If someone prefer the money in Dollars or Pounds that is also possible as they are very roughly similar in value to the Euro.
Someone who is in Rome or knows the Vatican archives from around the time of the Voynich could potentially be very helpful.
RE: €200 Reward - Mark Knowles - 31-12-2021
I probably ought provide an expiry date for such a reward.(I don't necessarily want someone in 20 years contacting me asking for remuneration.) I would have thought if it were valid for 2 years from this date that would make sense.
RE: €400 Reward - Mark Knowles - 01-01-2022
I will clarify that the €400 is for the location of an individual letter or cipher key in a given place(archive, book, paper, online etc.) If multiple enciphered letters are at the same location the reward of €400 will apply, as though they were one item, and only be increased at my discretion to reflect the large find.
RE: €400 Reward - Mark Knowles - 01-01-2022
Here are some clues as to where I have and haven't searched to my full satisfaction for 1404-1438 ciphers:
1) I have looked very hard for ciphers in Italian archives as much as I can without being in Italy. This was very much the centre of the world when it came to ciphers of that time and so has to be the first port of call. There are almost certainly ciphers in Italian archives that I haven't located, but it may be quite difficult for someone not in Italy to find them either.
2) The Vatican Archives remain a bit of a mystery to me. I have photoreproductions of a couple of ciphers, however I think/hope that there should be much more.
3) Outside of Italy.
a) Ciphers of the Kingdom of Aragon. I get the impression from the experts in historical ciphers in Spain that they are not aware of ciphers from the period other than those I know, but again there may be ciphers they don't know about.
b) Ciphers from German speaking regions. We think from the Alphabet Kaldeorum that there was use of ciphers for diplomatic communication in the German speaking regions. There is also a cipher key in the Gonzaga cipher ledger from King Rupert of the Palatinate.
c) Ciphers from the Duchy of Savoy. There are none in Turin it appears. However I believe the Duke lived in Geneva, so if records survive they could be anywhere in the Duchy of Savoy.
d) Italian ciphers in archives outside of Italy. Ekaterina Domnina's discovery of a Sforza cipher in a Moscow archive shows that Italian ciphers can find there way to all sorts of place outside of Italy. Generally this an area where my knowledge is quite weak I feel as there are so many archives that it is hard to know where to start. I know of no such ciphers from the period in almost all the states in Europe, but there are certainly Italian diplomatic documents to be found outside Italy, so there might be ciphers.
e) Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund. I have not located his enciphered correspondence if it survives.
RE: €400 Reward - Aga Tentakulus - 01-01-2022
@Mark
The ancestral home of the Counts of Savoy is located near Geneva on the lake.
The time after 1400 was also the upheaval to the Italian kings and the French nobility.
Count Peter II was also the cousin of Rudolf I of Habsburg which gave quarrels about the lands in the inheritance.
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RE: €400 Reward - Mark Knowles - 01-01-2022
(01-01-2022, 05:52 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Mark
The ancestral home of the Counts of Savoy is located near Geneva on the lake.
The time after 1400 was also the upheaval to the Italian kings and the French nobility.
Count Peter II was also the cousin of Rudolf I of Habsburg which gave quarrels about the lands in the inheritance.
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Yes. However the question is in which archive their diplomatic correspondence may be and in particular their enciphered letters and cipher keys, if any of them survive. From my experience these things are not necessarily in the most obvious places.
The Duke of Savoy Amadeus VIII was also Antipope Felix V during the time I am interested in, so these documents could be in a religious archive.
There may also be enciphered correspondence in other Swiss archives my researches so far haven't lead me to locate any, but I did not know where to look. I was wondering if there were any in Bellinzona.
RE: €400 Reward - Ranceps - 01-01-2022
Don't know if it helps, but I found a website containing a lot of cyphers. Might not be exactly what you are looking for, but still can provide some goodies
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