The Voynich Ninja
Do you see same patterns? - Printable Version

+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: Do you see same patterns? (/thread-3529.html)

Pages: 1 2 3


Do you see same patterns? - Pardis Motiee - 18-04-2021

Hi. I checked up to ten pages and the mentioned rules You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. include every paragraph.
This is a detailed sample of folio 68r [Image: blkx9ean8tt61.png?width=2000&format=png&...79880064e6]


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Anton - 18-04-2021

Hi Pardis, can you be more explicit please and describe the "alternate", "reverse" and "twin" patterns with examples?


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Pardis Motiee - 18-04-2021

(18-04-2021, 10:46 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Pardis, can you be more explicit please and describe the "alternate", "reverse" and "twin" patterns with examples?


Hi.


In R1 we have alternative patterns.Three words have same final letters, If you delete them, then in finals of words two and three , three letters would be same and they would be deleted. Same should be done for the beginnings ,again in words two and three , the initial letter is same and it will be omitted. Omissions happen in neighbors meaning in a row: first look at first word compare it with second , compare second to third and continue to the end. In a line words I.II .III may have same initials, the repeats are deleted. But if I.II.V have same initials, V is not counted.

Twin is repeats of  elements in neighbor. It can be repeats of just one letter or a mix of letters. First word of R3 has a three times repeat of a letter which would change to one letter. CCC it would be C .  Or for mixed of letters you can look at first word of f33v, ODOD it would be OD. The pattern happens inside the words, or if one words finals are same as the neighbors initial. Like if I say POD ODA , It would be PODA. However, If two words repeat,instead of elements, I would delete both based on alternate. ABC ABC , BC goes with BC and A goes with A.The letters I'm showing with key board here is just for representing pattern.


Inverse is two same elements surrounding a word or a part inside a word. ODPODR here I delete D which is surrounding PO , and it turns to OPOR . The element can be one letter or a mix of letters. and it can develop to reversed , like ODAPOADR here DA and AD are reversed and would be deleted. Some examples are word six of R3 and first word of f18r.


RE: Do you see same patterns? - davidjackson - 18-04-2021

OK, bring me up to speed on this please... are you suggesting there is a repeatable pattern in vords? If so, what is the pattern?
Are you suggesting that there is a repeat pattern that can be "struck out" within sentences?


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Anton - 18-04-2021

That's the point that I don't understand too. A pattern is something systematically re-occurring. However, e.g. R1 in the upper figure is not the same as R1 in the lower figure. In the former case we have three vords in sequence, in the latter - two vords. In the former, the three vords end with y, in the latter - with or. In the former case all three vords begin with the same glyph (assuming ch and sh is the same thing), in the latter  - they do not. So where is the "pattern" here (except that in both cases the first two vords end similarly to each other, but this definitely does not hold for any VMS paragraph)?


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Pardis Motiee - 18-04-2021

R is a region which that repeats are concentrated. The letters , words , and everything that repeats are not exactly same. There is the structure that I call pattern. As you know in programming you give the computer rules , like a program which takes the entry, adds it to the end of words. You can choose any entry, Y.Z.A.B and so on. but the base and program is still same. I think you mean the name pattern is not correct. What should I call it? [I added an attachment to the last post]


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Anton - 18-04-2021

I guess this can be called an "algorithm" or "procedure". If you can demonstrate that there is a procedure in the VMS which converts input to output in a systematic fashion, that would be a huge leap forward indeed. Like, (for the sake of example):

"Assuming input "ABCD", exclude B, prepend E, append F, and write it all in the reverse order. Then ABCD becomes FDCAE. Repeat this for any third vord of any sixth paragraph".

What I can see in your newly attached plot, is that e.g. there are sequences of vords which end or begin in the same manner, or that there are vords which have repeatable glyphs within. What though? This happens. "Boogie bubble refrain, again".


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Pardis Motiee - 18-04-2021

(18-04-2021, 04:08 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, bring me up to speed on this please... are you suggesting there is a repeatable pattern in vords? If so, what is the pattern?
Are you suggesting that there is a repeat pattern that can be "struck out" within sentences?

Both in words and rows of words. Twin and inverse work in words.  Alternate, with inverse and twin, forms the rows. They interact, like if you delete alternate. the remaining text can make the second alternate or the two others. I somehow analyzed first page based on these patterns and put it in lingbuzz You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but it is not complete. There patterns are sorted by colors in appendix. I attach the brief classification.


RE: Do you see same patterns? - davidjackson - 18-04-2021

OK, this is very interesting and a new way of looking at things.
Currently, however, I just don't know if this is a new angle, or just a reinterpretation of Stolfi's "crust-mantle-core" system, where he created a sort of grammar for Voynichese, and showed how positional aware each glyph is.
Let me select a paragraph at random (RZ modern transcription) with ambiguities removed:
<f26v 5,+P0>      deeol cheody qoteedy qokody qotedy qotedy opchedy ofchy chs ar
<f26v 6,+P0>      toeedy keody shedy dar chedy sches or,cheeky dar chey cheky yteedy
<f26v 7,+P0>      pchedy dar cheoet chy sair chees odaiiin chkeeey ykey sheey
<f26v 8,+P0>      tchedy okeeos cheeos ysaiin okcheey keody s,aiin cheeos qokes ory
<f26v 9,+P0>      ysheey okeshy shody peshy todydy


<f26v 5,+P0>      deeol cheody qoteedy qokody qotedy qotedy opchedy ofchy chs ar
<f26v 6,+P0>      toeedy keody shedy dar chedy sches or,cheeky dar chey cheky yteedy
<f26v 7,+P0>      pchedy dar cheoet chy sair chees odaiiin chkeeey ykey sheey
<f26v 8,+P0>      tchedy okeeos cheeos ysaiin okcheey keody s,aiin cheeos qokes ory
<f26v 9,+P0>      ysheey okeshy shody peshy todydy<$>



[font=Arial]How would your system work? And what is its aim? (scratch that, not a fair question)[/font]


RE: Do you see same patterns? - Anton - 18-04-2021

@Pardis

Why ABC BC BC -> A, but ABC BCD -> ABCD (and not AD)