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Circular Text Observations - Klingmann - 26-02-2021
Hi all,
Once again, sorry if this has been discussed before (seems to be my standard opening for my posts! I do search for key words before posting, but I think I must be rubbish at searching!)
Following on from another post I made regarding how the circles were drawn, I have made another tentative observation (which I have no doubt many others have noticed before, at some point or another!)
The text which has been drawn within circles very often has some kind of symbol, or at least a straight line at some point, which seemingly divides the vords, or at least creates some kind of break in the vord sequence within the circle. I guess it is a fairly common assumption that this signifies where the "sentence" starts from...?
If I were to write text within circles as has been done in the VMS, I think I'd have probably had these breaks occuring exactly at 12 o'clock, (or North, I suppose). However, having looked through all of the VMS, it almost seems that the scribe didn't pay much attention to where these breaks were... or did he? If you look over all the text within circles (ignoring the Rosettes page for now), you'll see that the 'breaks' all seem to occur between 9 o'clock and 12 o'clock, with an average of somewhere around 10 o'clock. Some could be said to be slightly below 9, but then again none of them seem to appear at exactly 12 either; they are only just before 12, so they are ALL within that same quarter of the circle.
I'm wondering if this holds any significance at all??
Taking this idea further , could we possibly use it to tell which way up we are supposed to 'read' the Rosettes pages individual circles? In other words, could we use this knowledge (that the scribe always put the circular text break between 9 and 12), to tell us which way up each of the 9 circles is intended to be viewed? (If indeed they are not all designed to be viewed straight from the manuscript)
Support for this argument: Look at the bottom right circle, and the bottom left circle of the rosettes page. The text shows clearly which direction these circles are supposed to be viewed from. If you turn the image clockwise until the text is predominantly level, the break in the text of the circle occurs at around 9 o'clock and 10 o'clock respectively! This also works with the middle-right circle. If you turn the image clockwise so the text is legible (well...as legible as voynichese ever is), the circular text break occurs at around 10 o'clock. (there is another break further around the circumference, but this one isn't as pronounced, so it seems like the previous break is the 'main' one.) Okay, what about the middle left circle? At the moment, with no rotation, the break is at 10 o'clock. Should we view the image this way on? The text isn't as easy to tell if this supports the hypothesis here, but at least some of the text is legible at the current, unaltered rotation.
Support against this argument: Top left circle. The break in the text appears at around 10 o'clock with no rotation. That would suggest the image should be viewed as shown. However, the one word we do get in the circle needs to be rotated anticlockwise by 90 degrees to be read, which would then put our circular text break at 7 o'clock. Hmm... Also, top right circle: the main castle makes you want to turn the page clockwise by 90 degrees. This again would make our line break occur at 3 o'clock. However, there are other structures within this circle which are not on the same horizon as the main castle, so perhaps we shouldn't look too closely at this particular building, just because it seems to be the most dominant structure?
Anyway. That's my random observation for the time being. Forgetting the Rosette theory, it is still interesting to me that the rest of the circular text breaks all occur within this same quarter of the circle.
Happy Voyniching everyone.
Gavin
PS, I seem to be obsessed with ((brackets)) in this post. Sorry!
RE: Circular Text Observations - Helmut Winkler - 26-02-2021
The pages with circular text as well as the rosettes page were certainly not bound into the ms. when written on, it is quite possible the 9 to 12 position is 'top'
Just as a side remark: in the 15th , south is usually at the top of a map
RE: Circular Text Observations - Mark Knowles - 26-02-2021
(26-02-2021, 05:55 PM)Klingmann Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Taking this idea further , could we possibly use it to tell which way up we are supposed to 'read' the Rosettes pages individual circles? In other words, could we use this knowledge (that the scribe always put the circular text break between 9 and 12), to tell us which way up each of the 9 circles is intended to be viewed? (If indeed they are not all designed to be viewed straight from the manuscript)
Support against this argument: Top left circle. The break in the text appears at around 10 o'clock with no rotation. That would suggest the image should be viewed as shown. However, the one word we do get in the circle needs to be rotated anticlockwise by 90 degrees to be read, which would then put our circular text break at 7 o'clock. Hmm... Also, top right circle: the main castle makes you want to turn the page clockwise by 90 degrees. This again would make our line break occur at 3 o'clock. However, there are other structures within this circle which are not on the same horizon as the main castle, so perhaps we shouldn't look too closely at this particular building, just because it seems to be the most dominant structure?
You may want to look at the following.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This discusses the changing orientation of the text on the Rosettes folio.
RE: Circular Text Observations - Koen G - 26-02-2021
Something like this has been discussed before in this thread You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Though you can certainly be forgiven for not knowing this, I made the thread myself and it took me a long time to find it again).
(I, too, sometimes wonder "did I use too many brackets?". They are useful I guess).
RE: Circular Text Observations - R. Sale - 26-02-2021
Those 'things' go back at least to Stolfi's page by page description that was posted on Rene's site. Stolfi called them " 'start here' markers" and used them to start the text band transcriptions. They seem to come in several different styles ranging from minimal to complex. And not just in the Rosettes, but scattered in various diagrams with circular bands of text and other patterns elsewhere. Three of the most complex variations are in the VMs zodiac sequence. Two are on White Aries. (f71r)
Do they do anything important? They mark text bands. Are the texts important? Perhaps, some of them. Which ones? Look at White Aries.
RE: Circular Text Observations - Emma May Smith - 26-02-2021
So, question for you to research Klingmann: do the start positions differ by scribe? You say that they're all between 9 and 12 o'clock, but does one scribe start particularly more toward 9 and another toward 12?
(I know that scribe 4 is responsible for many circular diagrams, but not all.)
RE: Circular Text Observations - ReneZ - 27-02-2021
Just for the record... many of the comments in the / Stolfi's interlinear file go back to earlier times, e.g. Gabriel Landini or Jim Reeds.
The circular trend in the writing direction on the Rosettes page goes back (in modern times) to one of the two Grove's. Not sure if John or Jon.
Probably, in a few decades from now, these observations will be named after people that now don't even know about the Voynich MS yet.
RE: Circular Text Observations - Klingmann - 28-02-2021
Having read everyone's replies, (thanks to all), I have developed a theory about why the scribe chose to start at roughly 10 o'clock rather than 12, and it has to do with page rotation.
If the scribe wrote the text last, after the images and circles were drawn (which makes sense), it would stand to reason that he would start to write the text with the page in its 'upright' position. If he had started at 12 o'clock, he would have written one or two vords, before he needed to turn the page to carry on writing. If, however, he started at 10, he could easily have written a third of the circles circumference without ever having to turn the page. My hypothesis therefore is that the 10oclock start was done for ease of page rotation, and has no other significance. What do you think?
Also Emma, that sounds like an interesting avenue of research! But opinions differ on which scribe wrote what... do you have a personal preference for how many scribes there were and which sections they wrote?
RE: Circular Text Observations - Anton - 28-02-2021
In the diagrams of the time, I have seen the demarcation point (a cross) to designate Oriens. As far as I remember, at least sometimes it was placed between 9 and 12. That's what made me suspect the dairol in the alphabet diagram to point to the East. Dividers in the text are probably another thing, they do not necessarily relate to anything positional in the diagram itself.
RE: Circular Text Observations - Emma May Smith - 28-02-2021
(28-02-2021, 09:34 AM)Klingmann Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also Emma, that sounds like an interesting avenue of research! But opinions differ on which scribe wrote what... do you have a personal preference for how many scribes there were and which sections they wrote?
I see no reason not to follow the recent work of Lisa Fagin Davis. I don't believe anybody as qualified has ever looked at this question.