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+--- Thread: Compound plants in the VMS ? (/thread-3488.html)
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Mark Knowles - 10-11-2021
(10-11-2021, 08:35 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(10-11-2021, 06:38 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One could interpret these drawings as being a clever combination of roots from one plant and leaves from another to communicate a particular message.
If one breaks down the individual plants into their components ( root, stem, leaf and flower ) and sees each of these parts as an independent "unit", then your assumption is quite justified.
When you say my assumption, I believe you mean that statement. I ask as that is not my assumption, nor do I believe it so. I think it is the assumption of many.
The key word is "clever". Someone might draw a plant's root in a way that vaguely resembles another plant's root, but there is a question as to whether this is a very deliberate decision or merely inadvertent. With so many plants in the manuscript misdrawing or mixing up roots occasionally seems very plausible unless one is very rigorous. The idea of some clever mix and match going on seems less likely to me.
I suppose to some extent it depends on one's perspective on the authors as to whether every detail in the manuscript was careful, calculated and well thought out or whether some things were ad hoc, inadvertent or just plain disorganised.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - pedestrian - 11-11-2021
Forgive me if the question has been raised before and answered to general satisfaction, but I could not find anything when I searched the forum.
Some of the plants, for example f19v, f39v, show clear discontinuities between root and stem, i.e. a flat section at the top of the root with the stem apparently separate but 'stuck into' the root. Most plants in the VM do not look like this, they have continuous root-to-stem, even if the colour changes and the root bulges or flattens before the stem.
I wondered whether these root-stem discontinuities might represent grafting, where a scion (the young shoot of a plant) is grafted onto a different rootstock? I admit that a flat cut with a scion stuck in the middle doesn't look like the best way of achieving a viable graft, but if the illustrator was only familiar with the concept rather than the detail this might be the simplest - if not horticulturally accurate - way to represent a graft. This was already an ancient art in the 15th century. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s an interesting document on the history of grafting.
While rootstocks are usually from the same genus if not actually the same species as the scion, it is possible to graft scions onto rootstocks within the same family of plants, and very occasionally beyond to combine the benefits (for example disease resistance) of one type of root with those (such as tastiness) of another plant.
The VM plants with discontinuities don't seem to be fruit trees or anything commonly grafted today, but - and this is getting into really wild speculation - if in the 1400s you wanted to combine the medicinal benefits of one plant with those of another, perhaps you might try grafting one medicinal herb onto the rootstock of another...
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Koen G - 11-11-2021
If you mean the line separating root from stem, this is a difference between Herbal A and Herbal B, as observed by Oocephalus. I wrote about it here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
While it could still mean something like grafting, I think the A vs B division makes this less likely. To me it looks most likely that someone added these lines to one group of plants (wherever he deemed necessary), while he did not work with the other group of plants.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - pedestrian - 11-11-2021
(11-11-2021, 05:24 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you mean the line separating root from stem
That's an interesting blog post which I hadn't read before, thank you. But the separating line wasn't exactly what I meant.
a) some plants have roots and stems that are roughly continuous, whether the colour changes or there's a separating line drawn on afterwards or not, e.g. f40v:
b) some plants have stems that appear to emerge from roots which are larger than the stems, but which nevertheless seem to be an 'organic' part of the plant altogether, e.g. f26r:
c) some plants have roots which are larger than the stem and the root appears to have been cut off flat and the stem(s) inserted into the cut off flat top of a larger root (as tends to be the case when grafting), whether they have the separating line, e.g. f19v:
or whether they don't have the separating line on the stem, e.g. f39V:
(These are probably not the best examples of each category).
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - MarcoP - 11-11-2021
Hi Pedestrian,
the idea of grafting was mentioned by Alain Touwaide in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Some discussion of the bizarre "flat-top" roots in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
For somehow comparable roots, see also the discussion about the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - R. Sale - 12-11-2021
Mark Knowles Wrote:
"I suppose to some extent it depends on one's perspective on the authors as to whether every detail in the manuscript was careful, calculated and well thought out or whether some things were ad hoc, inadvertent or just plain disorganised."
Indeed, it is all about perspective. Consider the value of ambiguity. How does the VMs artist create something that is strange and exotic, assuming the work was done prior to 1450?
The use of combinations creates ambiguity. Combinations in the plants, combinations in the cosmos, combinations with Melusine and the Golden Fleece. Taking what is known, the artist combines disparate parts to create ambiguity and the appearance of something strange and exotic. A marvelous text from an unknown source, from a land of great wisdom, as you can see.
It's all a matter of perspective. A question of who is fooling who? Is the VMs to be considered only based on its superficial appearance, or is something more subtle involved? Combination is part of the plan to create intentional ambiguity. It creates a more complex problem of identification that cannot be solved from a single source. The cosmic comparison, coming from the investigations of E. Velinska, is a great example of artistic manipulation. The comparison shows the full alteration of appearance yet a strong structural similarity with BNF Fr. 565, for starters.
Further investigation is an attempt to identify both parts of the combination. And to see that a combination of quite disparate parts is essentially an intentional challenge to the reader's familiarity with a set of historical events as ambiguously represented in certain VMs illustrations. But all interpretation of ambiguity is lost, from the modern perspective, when the necessary familiarity with that relevant history does not exist and recognition cannot occur. Who knows Oresme's cosmos? Who knows a nebuly line? Look at the history of VMs research. Who knows the list of things that the VMs artist knows and draws, combines and disguises? These intentional combinations use a subtle sophistication to disguise representations of a historical, religious tradition in VMs White Aries.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Mark Knowles - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 01:12 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark Knowles Wrote:
"I suppose to some extent it depends on one's perspective on the authors as to whether every detail in the manuscript was careful, calculated and well thought out or whether some things were ad hoc, inadvertent or just plain disorganised."
Consider the value of ambiguity. How does the VMs artist create something that is strange and exotic, assuming the work was done prior to 1450?
Well it appears that you are claiming that the Voynich is a hoax/fake. I am not of that opinion, however I don't want to get distracted by that particular rabbit hole.
(12-11-2021, 01:12 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is the VMs to be considered only based on its superficial appearance, or is something more subtle involved?
For me, Occam's razor comes in here. It may be attractive for a more complex explanation for aspects of the Voynich to be believed. However the Voynich is an imperfect document and so a simpler explanation could be one of error instead of plan in some aspects of the Voynich. One can ask whether the flaws in certain poorly illustrated drawings are deliberate or just mistakes by an experienced or careless illustrator.
(12-11-2021, 01:12 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Combination is part of the plan to create intentional ambiguity.
Further investigation is an attempt to identify both parts of the combination.
But all interpretation of ambiguity is lost, from the modern perspective, when the necessary familiarity with that relevant history does not exist and recognition cannot occur.
Who knows the list of things that the VMs artist knows and draws, combines and disguises?
From my point of view it appears that your approach can lead one to seeing patterns when sometimes they are just not there.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - R. Sale - 12-11-2021
Well. there's that problem of perspective. I see the VMs as genuine, however not as a text for the straight-forward provision of information as it might seem to be, but as a puzzle that was obfuscated and disguised in order to appear as something it is not. It is a genuine document, but it had a covert purpose.
Red hats and blue stripes are found on White Aries. Whether patterns are seen or patterns are not seen, the elements are present on the page. And given that the elements clearly are present in the illustration, patterns can be seen when they correspond to what is known about historical reality. The patterns are present; it's their interpretations that have been absent. That is the problem of perspective.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Mark Knowles - 12-11-2021
(12-11-2021, 07:27 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.as a puzzle that was obfuscated and disguised in order to appear as something it is not.
I believe the Voynich is enciphered. However I don't think that it was made to appear as something it is not.
(12-11-2021, 07:27 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Whether patterns are seen or patterns are not seen, the elements are present on the page. And given that the elements clearly are present in the illustration, patterns can be seen when they correspond to what is known about historical reality. The patterns are present; it's their interpretations that have been absent.
Well, as I said sometimes people see patterns that don't exist. Sometimes people want to see patterns.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Linda - 12-11-2021
(11-11-2021, 04:17 PM)pedestrian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some of the plants, for example f19v, f39v, show clear discontinuities between root and stem, i.e. a flat section at the top of the root with the stem apparently separate but 'stuck into' the root. Most plants in the VM do not look like this, they have continuous root-to-stem, even if the colour changes and the root bulges or flattens before the stem.
I wondered whether these root-stem discontinuities might represent grafting, where a scion (the young shoot of a plant) is grafted onto a different rootstock?
I see it rather as a plant regrown from a bare root. The resulting plant is generally smaller in girth than the exposed root would lead one to estimate initially, in many cases it leads to multiple shoots, which, if you cut them off to concentrate on a particular new stem or leaf appendage, or naturally sets out only one such shoot, could possibly result in a similar size change at the stem/root join.