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Compound plants in the VMS ? - Printable Version

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RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - RenegadeHealer - 22-02-2021

I corresponded with Diane O'Donovan about this once, since iconography is her area of research. Diane's solution to the "weird plant problem" is more or less in line with JKP's: Real plants deliberately drawn with non-realistic or exaggerated features, in order to illustrate, and call to memory, what's distinctive and useful about this particular plant. I think this idea is compatible with Marco and René's idea about plants drawn from a written description, by an artist who had neither a live specimen, nor a highly accurate image of one, to use as a model.

Assuming the section we call "Herbal A" really is about plants (rather than just seeming to be about plants), then it's likely that the creators of the VMs did have some familiarity with the processed products of the plants they wished to write about. They probably had some interest in documenting some of the properties and practical uses of these plant derivatives. If I needed to draw a whole bunch of plants based on written descriptions, but had no idea what they looked like in the wild, and had only seen and used the things humans harvest from them, then an easy way to make one of my drawings look distinctive is to include features of its product(s) in my drawing.

With only minimal familiarity with medieval manuscripts in general, a question on my mind is, Why illustrate the plants in the first place? If a written description sufficed for the exemplar, why not for this work? This question is especially worth asking in light of Alain Touwaide's professional judgement that the VMs is not a typical medieval herbal, and quite possibly not an herbal at all. Someone better informed about books and literacy in the Middle Ages will have to correct me on this, but one idea I have, is that Herbal A was designed to be thumbed through like a reference book. A user of the reference could flip through quickly until he saw the image of the plant he was looking for. If the plants were drawn strictly according to sketchy verbal descriptions, I daresay a lot of them would end up looking too generic and similar to each other to serve this function well. A few fanciful distinguishing embellishments on each plant, based on things that are important to people about that plant, would solve this problem.

Diane also presented the idea that a given Herbal A page might be about a category of plant, or about a practical use for various plants, with the composite parts representing different plants that fall into that category, or all have that same practical use. Since this is not my idea, and she's not around to speak for herself anymore, I really can't say how precedented or likely this kind of imagery was in the middle ages.

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - bi3mw - 22-02-2021

(22-02-2021, 05:06 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This question is especially worth asking in light of Alain Touwaide's professional judgement that the VMs is not a typical medieval herbal, and quite possibly not an herbal at all.
Can you please say when and in which context Alain Touwaide made this statement ? I am honestly a bit surprised. After all, a considerable part of the illustrations in the VMS consists of plants. At least this part makes, from my point of view, strongly the impression of an herbal.

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - RenegadeHealer - 22-02-2021

(22-02-2021, 06:19 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(22-02-2021, 05:06 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This question is especially worth asking in light of Alain Touwaide's professional judgement that the VMs is not a typical medieval herbal, and quite possibly not an herbal at all.
Can you please say when and in which context Alain Touwaide made this statement ? I am honestly a bit surprised. After all, a considerable part of the illustrations in the VMS consists of plants. At least this part makes, from my point of view, strongly the impression of an herbal.

Source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Touwaide, 2019). Excerpt, translated from the Italian by DeepL.com:
Quote:"In the Voynich I find a coherence, but above all an incoherence. The manuscript borrows some iconographic motifs, but assembles them in figures that are not realistic. So, there is a coherence from the point of view of iconographic language, but an incoherence in the assembly. And it is this aspect that makes me say that it was not a herbarium to be used in medical practice, but a creation, a caricature, an imitation, a game", explained Touwaide.
(emphasis mine)

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Koen G - 22-02-2021

I hope he will discuss such things in his oncoming publication (if it is still happening).

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - R. Sale - 22-02-2021

It certainly appears that it is the intent of the plant section to give the strong impression of an herbal. However, there are also the points that Aga T. made about "sketchy verbal descriptions". And at the same time this great lack of precision is combined with "f[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]anciful distinguishing embellishments" supposedly used to make identification possible. The identification of the various VMs illustrations ranges form fairly easy to very difficult (and beyond) - even for those well acquainted with botany, which I am not. The appearance is that of an herbal that originated in a culture which the reader in the 15th century would not have previously encountered. The reality is that there was never such a culture or civilization, but in the time of the VMs, such a fact could not be known.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Of course, this appearance functions in combinations with the written VMs twxt. The VMs text also give the impression of being a written language - at least to some extent. It's not like certain types of encryption systems where the design of the individual glyphs is such that the text produced is an obvious candidate for the presence of a hidden communication system. Whereas the initial rule for a good system of encryption, according to Roger Bacon, is to disguise the presence of any encryption in the first place, - to look like a normal text, though perhaps in a unknown 'foreign' language.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Compound plant images may be part of the VMs, as compound images seem to also be present in other illustrations as well. In my view, however, botanical investigations have not been shown to be very informative. Even a potentially valid plant identification reveals nothing beyond itself. Meanwhile cosmic, heraldic, religious, even mythical research has revealed specific historical connections that are compatible with traditions, knowledge and events in the first half of the 1400s.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Isn't one of the first criteria for a successful investigation the capacity to differentiate between what is useful and relevant, and what is not? If the VMs was intended to convey hidden information, it is not reasonable to expect to find that information plainly available on each and every page. Not all pages need to possess essential or relevant information. Indeed such pages can serve as a disguise for what has been hidden. The more effort spent looking in the wrong place, the more successful the deception.[/font]

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]At the same time, there may not be a *right* place to look, either. More complex clues may lead to more complex investigations, but there is no guarantee of useful or 'valid' result. The VMs puzzle may not have had a specific solution, as such, or essential information may be lost on missing pages. The best procedure is to identify and follow the most likely prospects. Gold is where you find it. And when you find it, dig a bit further.[/font]

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - -JKP- - 22-02-2021

(22-02-2021, 02:31 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's the drawings in the alchemical herbals that I would refer to as "fantasy".

There are several authoritative sources for these herbals.

These manuscripts are quite consistent in all respects: illustrations, text and naming of the plants.

I can remember one "fish root" and Marco had a nice blog post about it, which I have not been able to find back

I must think of the word "fantasy" differently. To me, a fantasy plant is a work of the imagination. Made up. Invented.

I think the herbals of the alchemists were created for practical use, not as fantasy illustrations (as one might find in a book of fables or monsters). It is my opinion, after studying them for years (since 2008) that most of the entries are plants that are particularly useful for distillation purposes, with some that may be included for their symbolic value (symbolism was part of the gnostic proclivities of the alchemists).

They are real plants. We know this. They are labeled, and the shape of the drawing matches the label. A fish root is not a "fantasy" attachment, it's a mnemonic. A snake by the root is not a fantasy animal, it's a mnemonic for "toxic" or for a plant part that is used for snake bite.

In my view, they are practical manuals of real plants, intended for professional use, not fantasy creations.

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - -JKP- - 22-02-2021

This is cyclamen, a plant often included in so-called "alchemical" herbals. It's easy to recognize (if you know plants and you are familiar with medieval drawing styles, you don't need to see the labels to know instantly that this is cyclamen). Everything is correct about it in the sense of including the most recognizable characteristics of the plant: the scalloped leaves, the spots, the protruding flowers, the fat root.

[Image: CyclamenAlchemists.png]              [Image: 00f362b6f01913d110b324ab6d986693.gif]

It's a real plant, i[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]t grows in three places in my garden. It is reasonably well drawn for the time (if you can recognize it easily without a label, it's generally a good drawing by medieval standards).[/font]


This is also a real plant and fairly accurately drawn. It has rounded leaves and a long stalk, and the drawing is instructive because people grew it on their houses (one of the common names for Cotyledon was "house leek", also "pennywort" due to the round leaves). It was planted to ward off evil (e.g., lightning strikes). Note that Sempervivum was also called "house leek" and grows in a similar way, with dense leaves at the bottom and a long stalk (some medieval plant books made a distinction between pennywort and Sempervivum, others used the term "house leek" interchangeably):

[Image: Cotyledon.png]        [Image: wall_pennywort.jpg]    [Image: 172b018cb67b5abe07ac65df6f030717.jpg]



This is orchid. Several species of orchid are included in medieval herbals. One of the common names was Palma Christi, which is appropriate because some of the orchids have a root that looks like a hand (others have a root that looks like testicles). So the root is a mnemonic for the shape of the root and the common name of the plant:

[Image: OrchidPalma.png]

This plant in the VMS is probably orchid (Palma Christi). The leaves are more accurately drawn than many medieval herbals, but even if they are badly drawn, people of the time would have recognized it by the hand:

          


I don't see these as fantasy plants. They are plants drawn to be recognized by their primary features, their names, and their distinctive characteristics or uses.

Even the odd-looking one with the eyeballs makes sense (sometimes labeled Torogas). I'm pretty sure it is self-heal, which was used by soldiers as medicine in the field. The rows of faces in the roots or leaves probably represent a troupe of soldiers.

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Aga Tentakulus - 23-02-2021

I'm getting tired of writing about the VM plants.
One should also look at it the other way round.
Personally, I only write in German, but you should also try books in other languages.
When I read old recipes, names of plants come up again and again. Very often (Haselwurz, Hauswurz,  hazelwort, houseleek ).
When I look up what these plants look like, I get the big AHA. I have already seen this in the VM. They are exactly what they are.
The same applies to classical herbs (Lungenkraut, Zahnwurz,  lungwort, toothwort). It is what it is. The names already say what it was used for. ( Dentaxxx ) in Latin. There is even a toothpaste with a similar name. Dentagard. And it looks very similar to the VM plant.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Wladimir D - 23-02-2021

Drawing (collage) on f89r2 certainly satisfies the title of this topic.

The three parts of the collage can be uniquely identified. The fourth part is most likely the root of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. plant.
   

RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - -JKP- - 23-02-2021

Many plants are very similar, so the drawings may be similar even if they are different plants. They aren't necessarily compound plant drawings. Some are so similar that botanists sometimes need a microscope to tell the difference.

There are many orchids that are almost the same except for the root. Crocus and Autumnalis look the same, but they are different plants. There are many different kinds of bugloss that are almost the same. Medieval herbals sometimes include two or three plants of the same family that are very similar.