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+--- Thread: Compound plants in the VMS ? (/thread-3488.html)
Compound plants in the VMS ? - bi3mw - 21-02-2021
On the net I found the following statement about the plants in the VMS:
Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
In fact, many of the plants ( in the VMS ) seem to be composite: the roots of one species have been fastened to the leaves of another, with flowers from a third. Each page displays one plant (sometimes two) and a few paragraphs of text - a format typical of European herbals of the time. ...
This thesis would at least explain why none of the plants is clearly identifiable. However, I think that the assertion that this was typical for European herbals of the Middle Ages is quite daring. Does anyone know examples of plants that are clearly compound ?
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - Koen G - 21-02-2021
I would be surprised if compounding plant images existed as a systematic practice. There must certainly be individual examples, where one could say something like "the draughtsman drew plant a, but for some reason drew flowers that look more like plant b". But those would probably be more like one-off compounds or simply accidents.
Imaginary plants certainly exist in herbals (the wonderful Trinity College manuscript we discussed long ago comes to mind), but those would be inaccurately described as "compound plants". They are just plants that don't exist, or that look completely different in real life.
As for the VM, I foresee various discussions about semantics, and opinions based on a few folios.
Someone who is of the opinion that "all this compound talk is nonsense" may point to some of the more obvious plant ID's that have been discussed over the years. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lists about eight plants where the general opinion seemed to agree about a specific botanical identification. But this leaves the vast majority of plants in the "problematic" category.
Another might say that many of the plants are compounds, but what do they mean by this? Representations of actual horticultural practices like grafting? Artistic compounds of existing plants, based on some kind of classification? Parts of real plants combined with fantasy parts? Mostly fantasy parts which at times take inspiration from actual herbals?
It's a whole continuum of possibilities which is difficult to narrow down and might even vary from folio to folio.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - MarcoP - 21-02-2021
Hi Matthias,
Alain Touwaide presented a similar idea in his 2019 Rome conference. For instance, he mentioned that that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows the leaves of a nymphaea and the flower of a lily. He also commented on the fact that some parts recur in different plants in various combinations. E.g. in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the lily flower is composed with star-shaped leaves. He compared the individual parts with details from Sloane 4016 (Touwaide is the author of the monograph about this ms that accompanies the Moleiro facsimile). I hope he will provide further details in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
I discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the compounding system in the "three-names" (non Pseudo-Apuleius) part of Trinity herbal O.2.48. These illustrations are produced by combining over and over again the same basic elements (mainly leaves, flowers, roots). In this case it seems clear that the illustrations were added by someone who had no idea of the plants he was illustrating. He could only rely on the text that says things like (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) : "the plant has flowers with a small horn and leaves like those of water Apium; the root is shaped like a scorpion". The result is an illustration where a childish flower with a small horn is composed with stylized Apium leaves; a "scorpion" (a lizard with eyes and legs) appears instead of roots.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - bi3mw - 21-02-2021
Thank you Marco ! It was unknown to me that Alain Touwaide has dealt with this possibility.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - -JKP- - 21-02-2021
A number of them are quite accurate and naturalistic. Some are stylized. Some may be symbolic. I suspect there's more than one kind of plant drawing, but I don't see overt evidence that they are composites, at least not yet. When people claim this, I notice they often make general comments about plants that are not accurate.
If they are compound plants, it would be almost impossible to identify them (without accompanying readable text) because you would not know which parts belong to which plant. The combinations would be endless.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - davidjackson - 21-02-2021
(21-02-2021, 02:03 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact, many of the plants ( in the VMS ) seem to be composite: the roots of one species have been fastened to the leaves of another, with flowers from a third. Each page displays one plant (sometimes two) and a few paragraphs of text - a format typical of European herbals of the time. ...should be formatted as...
(21-02-2021, 02:03 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In fact, many of the plants ( in the VMS ) seem to be composite: the roots of one species have been fastened to the leaves of another, with flowers from a third.
Each page displays one plant (sometimes two) and a few paragraphs of text - a format typical of European herbals of the time. ...
This way, it makes perfect sense, because many herbals of the period were laid out in that format, one or two plants and a few paragraphs of text with each of them. I don't think the original author meant for the composite bit to be interpreted in that way.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - bi3mw - 22-02-2021
Well, that would make the whole thing a bit clearer if it is meant that way. However, the example page, which is probably from the Circa Instans, would not really fit.
The core statement, namely that the plants in the VMS are composed, remains however. It is only no longer represented as generally usual.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - ReneZ - 22-02-2021
As far as I am concerned, this is clearly not an "all or nothing" question.
FWIW, I do agree with @bi3mw, and others, that such compound plants are not at all typical or usual for herbals of the time.
For me, there are two closely related suggestions or classifications, namely "fantasy plants" or "plants drawn from written descriptions". Again, as underlined by Marco, the alchemical herbals and parts of the Cambridge herbal may serve as useful examples.
Both have "fantasy plants", but in the alchemical herbals these are in many cases based on existing plants. When drawing fantasy plants, inevitably there will be elements that are taken from real plants in nature.
Also, when "drawing plants from written descriptions", the artist would use forms or shapes that he might know from nature or from other illustrated herbals.
In both cases, there could be a combination of real, existing plants, and composites.
That plants drawn from written descriptions also appear in the important "Tractatus" tradition was for me an eye-opener. This specifically concerns the illustrations of Musa, as clarified by Marco some time (years?) ago.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - -JKP- - 22-02-2021
I don't think of the plants in the herbals of the alchemists as fantasy plants. There is a method to how they are drawn. A fish for a root usually means it's an aquatic plant (or one that grows in swampy land). We know this because they are labeled and the labels usually match the plant (not always, sometimes they are wrongly added later, but most of them match the plant). This makes it possible to see the pattern.
A snake or dragon frequently indicates a toxic plant, or one that is used to treat snake bites. Sometimes the animal relates to the name of the plant, but it's not a mystery, because they are labeled.
In other words, a fish root is frequently a mnemonic, quite a good one. It's easy to recognize.
Over time I've been able to figure out most of the lunaria plants, also. They are stylized, but they do (for the most part) match real plants. I'm sorry I haven't had time to post the information yet. I have so much info, I can't find sufficient time to write it all up.
RE: Compound plants in the VMS ? - ReneZ - 22-02-2021
It's the drawings in the alchemical herbals that I would refer to as "fantasy".
There are several authoritative sources for these herbals.
These manuscripts are quite consistent in all respects: illustrations, text and naming of the plants.
I can remember one "fish root" and Marco had a nice blog post about it, which I have not been able to find back