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+--- Thread: If you made the VMs, ... (/thread-3364.html)
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - R. Sale - 25-09-2020
The moonwort doesn't register with me. The leaf margins are highly irregular and the closer I look the worse it gets. The smaller image however is an interesting comparison for f94r. Nevertheless, the plain nebuly line pattern that was used in the first three leaf patterns is the same at line patter found in the VMs cosmos and similar to those throughout Quire 13. Are they all leaf margins? Well, hardly. but they all are nebuly lines. Likewise the more complex examples are mirrored in the more typical versions of a cloud band in the VMs Rosettes, etc.
As JKP suggested earlier, there is no reason that things cannot serve a dual purpose. If fact that is one of the factors that the VMs employs in its trickery. That is, to be so strongly affirmative of one purpose, that the other purpose, the other potential interpretation, is overlooked, lies unknown, unrecognized and undiscovered because the relevant information of historical tradition was not connected to the VMs investigation as integrally as it has recently started to be.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - Mark Knowles - 25-09-2020
Having read the title I thought:
If I made the VMs then I must be around 600 years old and therefore the Voynich manuscript must surely contain the secret to eternal youth.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - -JKP- - 25-09-2020
The picture I posted is not moonwort. It's information about another plant in addition to the two pics I posted. I didn't have time to link a picture (I'm working during the day).
Look up Lunaria - moonwort on Google images. Moonwort has very regular leaves.
Never mind. I'll find one...
![[Image: BotrychiumLunaria.jpg]](https://pfaf.org/Admin/PlantImages/BotrychiumLunaria.jpg)
The VMS illustrator can't draw very well. It's not bad, but it's not expert either. The observations are good, the detail is often there, but the drawing-skill level is average. He or she has REAL difficulty with thinking in three dimensions. The nymphs are all drawn according to a formula. So, choosing a pattern and sticking with it, for any particular kind of leaf, something that is close, would not be an unusual thing to do. After all, the nymphs are drawn mostly to a pattern.
I am completely open to the idea that the patterns are chosen for a reason, but one argument I don't accept is that these patterns are not found in nature. Nature is VASTLY inventive. Anything you can imagine, within physical reason, is usually out there somewhere.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - Aga Tentakulus - 25-09-2020
There are some criteria where I have to take into account.
Sometimes also which culture has marked something and for what reason.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - R. Sale - 25-09-2020
Taking a change in perspective, rather than propose this is a situation that is "either/or", it seems to function well enough if interpreted as being "both/and". *It* is both a line pattern and a leaf margin. At least it is a leaf margin within the realms of VMs ambiguity. But it is only "both/and" with the qualification that the traditional, heraldic interpretation of the line pattern has long been absent in historical VMs investigation.
This is another situation that conforms quite well with the dual interpretation scenario. One interpretation is well known. Botany is obvious: these are plants - something like plants. And heraldic interpretation, while it's clearly there, it has, for much of contemporary investigation process, essentially been 'off the radar'.
At the same time, it is clear that the traditional interpretation is relevant because it applies to the VMs cosmos. This demonstrates that the creator of the VMs knew and used the traditional interpretation. However, it is the lack of this traditional information and vocabulary that thwarts attempts at modern understanding.
Has anyone found any equally clear examples of nebuly lines used in *pre-1500s, botanical* illustrations? Is there something comparable?
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - Linda - 26-09-2020
It is easier to draw a nebuly line than to copy exactly the patterns of nature. I do not see what they would be showing otherwise. I don't know much of heraldry, are you saying it is indicative of a particular family or religious lineage? In association with the plant, or are you implying the plants are just camouflage for the nebuly lines? When they are in the shapes of leaves, how do you unfurl them to know what is what?
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - R. Sale - 27-09-2020
In attempting to understand something, one needs to know what it is. In order to know what it is, it can be quite helpful to know what it is called. In this case the item is a regularly moving back and forth, with crests and troughs that are bulbous. Several adjectives, undulating, serpentine, and meandering, in particular, describe this pattern quite well. An average person could easily draw a reasonable likeness. What about drawing a nebuly line?
If we want to understand something that is (appears to be) six centuries old, then we may be helped if we knew what it was called six hundred years ago. This is where heraldry comes in. There can be no question that heraldry was socially pervasive in Europe in the 1400s and clearly predates the VMs parchment. Heraldry of this era used a number of different line patters known as heraldic lines of division.
This is a nebuly line division.
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And here in the gallery is a variety of old and new lines of division.
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What's so great about heraldic connection besides its chronological compatibility? That has to do with the word itself and its origins. If we look at the origins of undulating, serpentine, and meandering. the first derives from waves, the second from snakes, the third from a wandering river in Asia Minor. 'Nebuly' also has an etymological origin in the Latin word 'nebula' meaning a mist or cloud. And in German heraldry the equivalent term is 'gewolkt', derived from 'Wolke' meaning 'cloud' and obviously related to 'Wolkenband' or cloud band, which was a technique used by some medieval artists to represent a cosmic boundary, either in the illustration of classical or Christian deities, or in a representation of the cosmos.
While this explanation does seem antithetical to botany, it clearly does help explain the presence of the nebuly line in the VMs cosmos. The gewolkt / nebuly line possesses a cloud-based connotation and is used in the construction of a Wolkenband / cloud band representing a cosmic boundary. This was brought to VMs investigation efforts in 2014 by E. Velinska and the comparison with BNF Fr. 565 fol.23. - which is a c. 1410 reproduction of Oresme. And there is the additional similarity that both representations have a cloud bands that display 43 bulbous projections.
Incidentally, a good representation of a plain nebuly line used as a cosmic boundary, generally quite uncommon, can be found in the Berry Apocalypse , owned by Jean, Duke of Berry (d. 1416), who also owned BNF Fr. 565.
Rather than presenting a number of individual representations required to stand or fall on their own, which tend to fail because of VMs ambiguity, I see a set of interpretations that have the potential to stand because they can lean on each other, which they do because they derive from a common tradition and history.
So despite their use in botanical illustrations, and also because of it, these first examples of nebuly lines at least call to mind (presuming they are there in the first place) the presence of nebuy lines seen on later folios. And there it shows that the VMs artist knew the cloud-based interpretation and, through the recovery of traditional terminology, we can share that same interpretation rather than an erroneous alternative, and hopefully VMs investigation moves slowly forward.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - aStobbart - 27-09-2020
(27-09-2020, 08:47 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And there is the additional similarity that both representations have a cloud bands that display 43 bulbous projections.
I might be doing it wrong, but I only count 41 projections. Regardless, I can see the similarities with the Traité de la sphère by Oresme
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - R. Sale - 27-09-2020
That's funny. Several people reported getting 43. That was some time back. Maybe a couple have gone into hiding or we're getting old and going blind.
Guess it depends on exactly which little thingies get counted and which don't. Four of the curved spokes go into the center and four do not. And some parts of the nebuly line are barely shown.
Nevertheless, it's an interesting combination of structural similarity and visual diversity.
RE: If you made the VMs, ... - aStobbart - 27-09-2020
(27-09-2020, 09:32 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nevertheless, it's an interesting combination of structural similarity and visual diversity.
Yes, but as far as a I know yellow stars over blue background (to represent cosmos) are not uncommon (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), the t-o map orientation on the other hand...
I wonder, if the VMs is a draft or copy, what would the words in the t-o map represent? are these just labels or placeholders for a detalied drawing like in the book by Oresme? If that's the case, thats a lot of text for just "water"