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+--- Thread: On purpose (/thread-3303.html)
RE: On purpose - -JKP- - 31-07-2020
(30-07-2020, 11:41 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
I was not suggesting for a moment that the author was "doing calligraphy for fun", which should be obvious from what I have written. The pleasure that the author was getting from it was not the pleasure of practising calligraphy just as when Newton wrote his Principia he didn't do it, because he wanted to practice his calligraphy....
Then what was the fun? You have suggested on numerous threads that there might be a high proportion of "nullwords". Which means the actual content would be quite low and the writing itself would be mostly work rather than fun. It's more than 200 pages.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 31-07-2020
(31-07-2020, 12:46 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(30-07-2020, 11:41 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I was not suggesting for a moment that the author was "doing calligraphy for fun"
Then what was the fun? You have suggested on numerous threads that there might be a high proportion of "nullwords". Which means the actual content would be quite low and the writing itself would be mostly work rather than fun. It's more than 200 pages.
It is noteworthy that in this thread I never used the word "fun" and have already explained why I haven't used the word "fun".
What was the pleasure that Newton and many other scientists got from their work? (Note I use the word "pleasure" not "fun".)
The use of filler text is a theory that I have expressed elsewhere. I don't see why the use of filler text goes against the narrative that it was written for "intellectual pleasure". Writing filler text is extra work whether the manuscript was written for pleasure or not, but if it is felt by the writer to be a necessary part of the process then that is that.
RE: On purpose - -JKP- - 31-07-2020
What is the pleasure in writing over 200 pages? If there's pleasure in it, do you consider the text to be meaningful?
Do you think if it were not meaningful that it would be equally pleasurable?
I guess I try to minimize my thinking about what the motivation might be (e.g., work or pleasure) because it's difficult to know what is in people's minds and emotions. But if you think there may have been pleasure in it, it would be more helpful if you described what you think might specifically have been pleasurable.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 31-07-2020
Do you get pleasure writing your blog?
The author could have got lots of pleasure writing the manuscript; I can easily imagine doing so in his/her shoes.
As should be clear, I think the text is meaningful overall, though I believe null/filler text has been used to help conceal the true text, in the same kind of way that null characters are used in other ciphers, as part of the cipher itself.
I think if it were not meaningful it is unlikely to be equally pleasurable unless the author was mentally challenged in some way.
I only addressed the question of motivation as I often see it brought up. For example, Koen recently suggested that the manuscript could have been a "masterpiece" designed to gain access to a guild or secret society or something of the like. It has often been suggested that it was a hoax designed to be sold in order to make money. These are very material motivations. It seems that the idea that it could be a product of someone gaining "intellectual pleasure" for its writing is rarely, if ever, addressed. I find that a more plausible explanation than the idea that the author was motivated by fame, money, status, recognition etc.
However I do agree that determining motivations is hard. It is sometimes hard for an individual to determine their own motivations, let alone those of others. Nevertheless motivations can suggest what might have been the history of the manuscript.
RE: On purpose - R. Sale - 31-07-2020
Consider Hildegard of Bingen to represent a type of motivation.
There are books about famous persons written by one of their followers, another source of motivation.
Have you looked through the KBR library? What are the motivations for all those books?
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Christine de Pizan produced a number of books and she had her motivations. Could those motivations be recognized if we had only one of her books, and we were unable to read it?
The motivation behind the VMs is difficult to determine. First because the functional level of the VMs was hidden behind a facade. And second because the functional level was built on traditional elements that were not recognized by many prior research efforts. Perhaps a motivation can be determined if the text could be read.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 31-07-2020
(31-07-2020, 05:22 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Consider Hildegard of Bingen to represent a type of motivation.
There are books about famous persons written by one of their followers, another source of motivation.
Have you looked through the KBR library? What are the motivations for all those books?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Christine de Pizan produced a number of books and she had her motivations. Could those motivations be recognized if we had only one of her books, and we were unable to read it?
The motivation behind the VMs is difficult to determine. First because the functional level of the VMs was hidden behind a facade. And second because the functional level was built on traditional elements that were not recognized by many prior research efforts. Perhaps a motivation can be determined if the text could be read.
Yes, it is very hard to determine motivations. I wanted to push back on the idea that the motivations of the author were necessarily very practical. Indeed another idea is that it was written for spiritual reasons. This also would fit the idea that the author may not have wanted to share the manuscript with others, in a very secretive manner.
RE: On purpose - -JKP- - 31-07-2020
(31-07-2020, 01:40 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you get pleasure writing your blog?
No. It's work. I would prefer not to blog. I was talked into it and once I start something I tend to follow through. I would rather spend the time researching.
The main reason I continue is because I have a lot of research that might help others, that might help reduce going in circles and re-inventing the wheel, and the best way to get it out there, to share it (until I find a better way) is to blog.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 31-07-2020
(31-07-2020, 08:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(31-07-2020, 01:40 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you get pleasure writing your blog?
No. It's work. I would prefer not to blog. I was talked into it and once I start something I tend to follow through. I would rather spend the time researching.
The main reason I continue is because I have a lot of research that might help others, that might help reduce going in circles and re-inventing the wheel, and the best way to get it out there, to share it (until I find a better way) is to blog.
Well, you may not enjoy it, but I am sure others do. Anyway you have introduced the idea that a motivation for writing the Voynich could have been a sense of duty. Certainly the narrow range of motivations normally suggested for writing the Voynich are far too limiting.
RE: On purpose - R. Sale - 31-07-2020
There are various religious and political situations where secrecy is desirable for the person(s) involved. It's not possible to say much more than that, but I believe that secrecy is a part of the VMs. Trickery and ambiguity are some other parts.
The dual interpretation of the heraldry on VMs White Aries is set in place. Bendy, argent et azure, the Fieschi coat-of-arms, as a pair; this is a key. This is a key that only works if you know the particular facts of ecclesiastical history and heraldry. The origin and the presentation of the cardinal's red galero.
The primary option, looking at the figures in a radial orientation, is a dead end interpretation. The more subtle, page-based interpretation opens a hidden path to historical connections.
The White Aries illustration reveals that the VMs artist knows Catholic church traditions that were historical from the perspective of the VMS parchment C-14 dates. Anyone <literate> can write history. Not everyone has reason to manipulate and obfuscate historical imagery. The purpose perhaps is to create a disguise, for readers whose knowledge is contemporary with the author's. There is a level of difficulty in the degree of ambiguity. However this is nothing in regards to the significance of the non-event that occurs when an investigator fails to identify such tradition through the absence of essential information and relevant details.
The gateway to alternative interpretation is presented by the VMs, however, those who don't see it cannot open it. It is hidden and ambiguous, but tradition does not alter heraldic form and color.
RE: On purpose - davidjackson - 31-07-2020
The simplest solution to the voynich - taking into account all the current most popular hypothesis - is that it a mid 15th century book of notes, written by several different people under one guidance (I have my own ideas about why this would be). Why the script? Again, several different ideas, but not relevant here.
So, fun? No. This concept as outlined above is outside the mindset of the era. It is also a hypothesis that does not obey Occam's razor.