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+--- Thread: On purpose (/thread-3303.html)
RE: On purpose - aStobbart - 29-07-2020
John Dee wrote a very extensive and elaborated diary. One can see that personal fulfillment was a big part of it by just reading it
RE: On purpose - -JKP- - 30-07-2020
Actually, Dee's diary was very much connected with his commercial projects.
He was always writing books and writing notes for everything he observed in anticipation of something in it resulting in a book. All his scrying with Kelley and extensive notes on their interactions was also related to the production of books.
RE: On purpose - davidjackson - 30-07-2020
There is a simple counter argument to the just for fun hypothesis :the existance of multiple scribal hands indicating this was a joint project.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 30-07-2020
(30-07-2020, 05:29 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is a simple counter argument to the just for fun hypothesis :the existance of multiple scribal hands indicating this was a joint project.
I don't think I actually used the word "fun" as this does tend to imply a lack of seriousness. Something can be done for pure pleasure, but still be a serious undertaking.
Nevertheless I don't see a joint project as being something that cannot be done by a group of people for their own pleasure. I knew people who would play Dungeons & Dragons (or equivalent) in a group for many hours at a time.
RE: On purpose - Koen G - 30-07-2020
True, but again, modern concept.
In the Middle Ages, it was the rule that any form of art needed to have as its primary goal some form of education, or practical purpose. Educating the masses about religious concepts, about moral values. Educating nobles about proper noble behavior. Books of hours, the ultimate 15th century manuscripts, had an explicitly practical, often tailor-made purpose.
Seemingly frivolous stories like Ovid's Metamorphoses were read, and no doubt with pleasure, they were still people after all. But the medieval view on art did now allow art mainly for enjoyment. So the classical stories were moralized. Or they were read in the original Latin in schools, in order to study Latin.
There was always a practical reason for art and books in the Middle Ages. The extent to which they enjoyed making these is of secondary importance.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 30-07-2020
I was just reminded recently that a few years ago it was discovered somewhere in the library of the Royal Society in London, I think, Isaac Newton's writings on Alchemy. In fact he wrote more on Alchemy than the subjects that he is famous for such as physics and calculus. Now, why did he write and research that subject? Was it because he hoped to sell his writings for a lot of money or maybe to impress a patron to employ him or so as to make lots of money turning lead into gold? In our modern capitalistic age the idea that someone would do anything for reasons other than personal self-interest and financial gain may seem strange, but even now lots of people do things for other reasons.
Without being overly romantic I would argue that Newton researched alchemy for the same reasons he researched Maths and Physics, namely for love of knowledge, love of discovery and out of a deep curiousity. I do not think Newton was unique in having that motivation. And although he was writing more than 200 years after the time of the Voynich I think there were people then who had similar motivations and interests. Personal pleasure and fulfillment seem very important motivating factors behind the quest for knowledge.
RE: On purpose - MichelleL11 - 30-07-2020
Hi, Mark:
As for Newton and alchemy, you must admit that it is equally likely that maybe he just wanted to turn lead into gold. Or, maybe on a more personal level, be the one recognized as who finally did it.
And given that it just wasn’t possible, or even derivable, at the level of knowledge then - even for a mind such as his - this resulted in a lot of writing.
We will never know. But in light of the general need for practicality of the arts at the time discussed by Koen these seem like more likely motivations to me than a pleasure or solely curiosity based motivation. I wouldn’t let the now known futility of it all color your interpretation of why Newton studied alchemy.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 30-07-2020
(30-07-2020, 05:53 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi, Mark:
As for Newton and alchemy, you must admit that it is equally likely that maybe he just wanted to turn lead into gold. Or, maybe on a more personal level, be the one recognized as who finally did it.
And given that it just wasn’t possible, or even derivable, at the level of knowledge then - even for a mind such as his - this resulted in a lot of writing.
We will never know. But in light of the general need for practicality of the arts at the time discussed by Koen these seem like more likely motivations to me than a pleasure or solely curiosity based motivation. I wouldn’t let the now known futility of it all color your interpretation of why Newton studied alchemy.
Of course, it is possible that he was looking for financial gain or status from his research.
When you say "We will never know", he must have written something about his motivations. Of course, he may not have written the truth. But can we not compare Newton's motivations with those of more modern scientists?
I don't think the futility of it is a factor. I just mentioned alchemy as it is more comparable to the subject of the Voynich than Maths or Physics. It seems to me that the Voynich is something like a scientific text, albeit clearly flawed. And scientists are not solely motivated by financial reward in my opinion.
I am still dubious of the notion that the motivations of medieval people were so very different from ours today.
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 30-07-2020
A few quotes from Newton:
"I was like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.”
[font=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]“Truth is the offspring of silence and meditation.”[/font]
[font=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif][font=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]“Whence arises all that order and beauty we see in the world.”[/font][/font]
[font=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif][font=Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Those do not sound like the words of someone motivated solely by fame or money.[/font][/font]
RE: On purpose - Mark Knowles - 30-07-2020
I am sure what applies to Newton applies to earlier and later scientists. I chose him as an example and as someone who wrote on alchemy.
The quest to find beauty in the world seems a very human one. In a time of significant religious belief the idea that people only did things for materialistic reasons seems strange. Some people believed that understanding the natural world brought one closer to god.