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+--- Thread: Masterpiece? (/thread-3301.html)
RE: Masterpiece? - davidjackson - 28-07-2020
The voynich shows no master skills of a scribe. No techniques or forms that would show off your talent, certainly nothing that would attract the attention of a scriptorium looking for saleable talent.
RE: Masterpiece? - -JKP- - 28-07-2020
I didn't say someone looking for a job as a scribe. I said someone looking for an apprenticeship. A young boy would sometimes be apprenticed and trained for 6 or 7 years before he would be allowed to work at a craft. He had to show talent, not skill, to get an apprenticeship.
RE: Masterpiece? - bi3mw - 28-07-2020
The question is whether something like the VMS was suitable to show talent. In my opinion it is too extraordinary for that. A simpler work would have been better suited to introduce himself as a talented scribe. Due to its design, the VMS is very difficult to evaluate. This also applies to possible "talent scouts".
RE: Masterpiece? - -JKP- - 28-07-2020
Some people will go to extraordinary lengths to help their children get ahead in life.
RE: Masterpiece? - ReneZ - 28-07-2020
(28-07-2020, 06:43 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It would not be impressive from a trained adult.
I see several similar comments in this thread.
I cannot agree at all.
Whoever created the Voynich MS had significant skills and clear knowledge of medical / philosophical documents.
Even if the penmanship is no match for the top scribes of the mid-15th Century, it is at a level that very few people had.
Creating such an invented, yet flowing script is essentially unparalleled in pre-modern history.
The herbal illustrations and their layout show familiarity with herbal manuscripts.
The cosmological illustrations could not have been made by someone who had never seen cosmological or computus manuscripts.
The zodiac illustrations also betray familiarity with early 15th century manuscripts.
I very, very strongly doubt (but would be happy to see evidence for or against) that juveniles and students would have access to such an array of manuscripts.
RE: Masterpiece? - RenegadeHealer - 28-07-2020
I find it interesting that some of you guys are arguing the VMs is too coarse to impress a trade guild or school, and others are arguing it's too extraordinary for this purpose. I'm not trying to be dense, I can see that there's not necessarily any contradiction here. It could be too coarse in all the ways that refinement mattered, and at the same time too extraordinary in all the ways that familiarity mattered. Either way the point is clear: the VMs is *not typical* of masterpieces produced for entry into groups of skilled or learnèd people in the middle ages, at least according to the historical record as we know it.
On the subject of secret societies, I've always had the sense that the most successful ones either leave no trace in the historical record, or only their false front makes it into the historical record, with no good evidence for the group's real covert purpose. Therefore, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a secret society, with demands on new initiates, that resembled nothing else historically documented. I'm not a historian, though, and will definitely defer to Helmut on this.
@Helmut, after reading Paul Weiler's book, I'm very much open to the idea that the VMs was a learnèd person's notebook, written in an idiosyncratic system of shorthand that only the author could read. They could be a teacher's lecture notes or a craftsman's trade secrets, in either case only to be disclosed to paying students or clients.
RE: Masterpiece? - aStobbart - 28-07-2020
(28-07-2020, 06:26 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Helmut already pointed out that these societies appeared a bit later.
I have to say that this remains not very high on my list of possibilities. That list is virtual - I never made it - but it is not short.
If the VMS was made with other porpouse in mind than storing knowledge, my best guess is that it was made as a magical book to impress the local folks. That's the charlatan approach and I think you mention it on your site or maybe it was P. Neal.
If this is the case, one could say it did quite well considering it ended up on Rudolf's posession
RE: Masterpiece? - Koen G - 28-07-2020
Might it be safe to say that [within the specific hypothesis that the VM was made to impress an audience rather than fool them] the skill displayed is not artistic refinement but rather something like management of information, integration of sources, consistent application of chosen writing system... In other words, the focus is on the contents and the way it is presented (both text and images) rather than the pure "métier" of manuscript maker?
RE: Masterpiece? - davidjackson - 28-07-2020
The book is made by some people with experience and knowledge. It was not made by an uneducated person, or a callow youth.
But it does not try to show off this expertise. There is no attempt at decoration, at ruling, at initials, at different methods.
There is an underlying plan, and it is executed (it seems) by different scribes under direction. There is no attempt to show off.
RE: Masterpiece? - Helmut Winkler - 28-07-2020
(28-07-2020, 01:10 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote='-JKP-' pid='39076' dateline='1595914986']
It would not be impressive from a trained adult.
I see several similar comments in this thread.
I cannot agree at all.
Whoever created the Voynich MS had significant skills and clear knowledge of medical / philosophical documents.
I wholeheartedly agree
Even if the penmanship is no match for the top scribes of the mid-15th Century, it is at a level that very few people had.
It is above average, but not more
Creating such an invented, yet flowing script is essentially unparalleled in pre-modern history.
It is not an invented script, that is the basic flaw in many arguments about the ms. I habe seen similar scripts in manoscritti datati volumes.
The herbal illustrations and their layout show familiarity with herbal manuscripts.
The cosmological illustrations could not have been made by someone who had never seen cosmological or computus manuscripts.
The zodiac illustrations also betray familiarity with early 15th century manuscripts.
There is nothing you would not find in the libraries of one of the better universities, Padua, Bologna, for example in the libraries of the mendicant friars, Dominicans, Franciscans and the private libraries of teachers, which were accessible to advanced students at least.
I very, very strongly doubt (but would be happy to see evidence for or against) that juveniles and students would have access to such an array of manuscripts.
I think there is a misunderstanding about age. You went as a small boy into a prep school, city or clerical institution, learned reading (and writing) and Latin, went at 12 or 14 to university (or into a clerical institution first) and had your B.A. at 18 and your M.A. at 20 (these are averages of course). Then you went into a job or started wiith something like medicine and took your doctorate. Accessability of books: You either bought them , if you were rich or copied them or used one of the existing libraries as I said above.