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+--- Thread: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? (/thread-3297.html)
What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - RenegadeHealer - 25-07-2020
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I couldn't find a previous discussion on this.
It looks like some written characters, or a rough initial sketch of an object to be held in her hand, was originally planned for this picture, and then abandoned. Maybe partially erased.
I almost put this thread in Marginalia, which didn't feel quite right. When I looked close and long enough, I was less and less sure this was a written word in any script or language.
I'm also open to the possibility that this is just a stain that occurred in a weird location.
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - -JKP- - 25-07-2020
I've been assuming this is a stain because the color is so different, but if something is chemically erased, that can also change the color and now that I look at it again, maybe there were three? letters there??
This folio doesn't have any labels. I wonder if someone started to label them and then decided not to, for whatever reason.
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - Koen G - 25-07-2020
I've been ignoring it as a stain. This folio is quite dirty, and I wouldn't quite know what to make of it if it were erased text or drawing.
Her hand also aren't quite in position that facilitates holding stuff
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - DONJCH - 25-07-2020
To me it looks like Eva d, a, ?, o, but against that, it is small - half size, at least.
Maybe lack of space is why it was removed?
If bleach or another oxidising agent is used on modern ink containing iron, it turns a shade of red and I presume the same applies to medieval gall ink. Anachronistic, clearly. Also, why not just scrape though?
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - bi3mw - 25-07-2020
(25-07-2020, 12:08 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This folio doesn't have any labels. I wonder if someone started to label them and then decided not to, for whatever reason.That seems most likely. As Koen has already stated, her hand position doesn't look like she's holding something. Nor is it a "fleeing" thing as in other folios ( or like the first nymph "holds" on this folio ) .
It looks too placed for a stain ( exactly between text and nymph ).
edit: I have tried to filter the contours a little bit. Not much came out but maybe someone sees more than me.
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - Anton - 26-07-2020
The last shape looks like letter ю
But I think it might be traces of b, there's a faint trace of its tail.
Overall, too tiny to make something definite of it.
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - MichelleL11 - 26-07-2020
(26-07-2020, 10:05 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The last shape looks like letter ю
![[Image: secretwriting-reimsbibliothequemunicipal....jpg?w=730]](https://dutchanglosaxonist.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/secretwriting-reimsbibliothequemunicipale9-154r.jpg?w=730)
Or the other direction of the symbol that was used to represent "N" in this coded final line from a 9th century English manuscript. The line translates to DEO GRATIAS (thanks be to God, using the "move vowels to closest consonant" code for the first two words) and some sort of weird Greek letter/other alphabet substitution for the AMEN.
It was discussed in this blog by Thijs Porck (with no identification of source of glyph). Maybe someone on the board knows more about the source of the alphabet?
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folio 154r of
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RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - Helmut Winkler - 26-07-2020
Dabei hat das griechische M oft die Form )-(, N die Form )-.
Bernhard Bischoff, Paläographie, 1979, S. 224, Anm. 94, about Griechisch as Geheimschrift
RE: What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? - -JKP- - 27-07-2020
(26-07-2020, 04:03 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-07-2020, 10:05 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The last shape looks like letter ю
Or the other direction of the symbol that was used to represent "N" in this coded final line from a 9th century English manuscript. The line translates to DEO GRATIAS (thanks be to God, using the "move vowels to closest consonant" code for the first two words) and some sort of weird Greek letter/other alphabet substitution for the AMEN.
It was discussed in this blog by Thijs Porck (with no identification of source of glyph). Maybe someone on the board knows more about the source of the alphabet?
...
The vowel-substitution cipher (deo gratias) was popular in the Middle Ages. It doesn't stop anyone from reading it, but it does slow them down if they are glancing over someone's shoulder. Plus, they may have considered the words to have more force or "power" if lightly encoded (gnostic attitude).
The Greek letters (AMEN) are not weird for the time. That is how uppercase Greek letters were written in the early medieval period. In fact, some of these shapes became the basis for paragraph-reference markers in medieval Latin texts. This was a practical choice, since they would not be mistaken for Latin characters when they were written within the text as reference markers.