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+--- Thread: Voynich anagramming (/thread-3262.html)
RE: Voynich anagramming - Torsten - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 12:46 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, Torsten. There are a lot of very rare occurrences in there, so I wonder whether many of these cases aren't the result of some form of noise rather than structural anagramming possibilities.
The frequency counts are in some way predictable. For instance beside [chedy] the type [dchey] exists and beside [shedy] exists the type [dshey]. Therefore I wouldn't dismiss rare word types as noise, even if it might be a god idea to check for transcription errors for them. On the other hand I would also argue that the examples didn't point to structural anagramming.
In my eyes something else is happening here. Beside [dchey] and [dshey] also the words [chey] and [shey] exists. Therefore I would explain [dchey] as [d + chey] and [dshey] as [d + shey]. In the same way the word type [daiin] exists beside [aiin] and the type [dal] beside [al] (see also Table 3 in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 2020, p. 8). It is often possible to decompose Voynich words into more frequently used word types or particles. Note that also hapax legomena can often "be seen as concatenations of more frequent words (e.g. [polcheolkain] = [pol] + [cheol] + [kain])" (Timm & Schinner 2020, p. 6). This would mean anagrams occur because Voynichese are composed from smaller parts.
RE: Voynich anagramming - bi3mw - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 01:48 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..On the other hand I would also argue that the examples didn't point to structural anagramming.I have run through the regimen sanitatis again as a Latin comparative text. There are only anagrams with maximum 3 (!) words. They almost all consist of 2 words. The English text of Doranchak hardly differs. Therefore I would say that the VMS is very striking in this respect. In my opinion, this cannot be explained simply by errors or "noise". The difference is too big for that.
RE: Voynich anagramming - Torsten - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 02:57 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my opinion, this cannot be explained simply by errors or "noise". The difference is too big for that.
This was exactly my point. There is no doubt that anagrams occur in a systematic way. They occur since Voynicheses are a composition of smaller parts and it is possible to rearrange this parts. They don't occur since word A is seen as an anagram of word B.
RE: Voynich anagramming - ReneZ - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 12:42 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.%coverage wordlength sortedletters [anagrams] (counts)
1.459642 2 lo [ol, lo] (537, 15)
1.3804572 4 cdehy [chedy, dchey, yched, cheyd] (501, 18, 3, 1)
1.1640184 2 dehsy [shedy, dshey] (426, 14)
1.0584384 2 chlo [chol, lcho, olch***] (396, 3, 0)
0.992451 2 or [or, ro] (363, 10)
- - ar [ar, ra*] (350, 0)
0.9106266 2 cehy [chey, echy ] (344, 1)
0.8156047 4 deekoqy [qokeedy, qoekedy, qekeody, qkeeody] (305, 2, 1, 1)
0.7496173 2 ehsy [shey, yshe] (283, 1)
0.7232223 2 dy [dy, yd] (270, 3)
0.7232223 2 dekoqy [qokedy, qkeody] (272, 2)
0.67571133 2 adl [dal, ald] (253, 3)
0.58332896 2 chor [chor, rcho] (219, 1)
0.56749195 2 aiikno [okaiin, koaiin] (212, 3)
0.498865 2 hlos [shol, lsho] (186, 2)
0.49358603 3 eekoy [okeey, ykeeo, oekey] (177, 7, 3)
These examples all have in common that one of the words in each group is responsible for at least 95% of all instances.
It doesn't seem useful to wonder if the rare cases are transliteration errors, or scribal errors.
They are simply rare, for whatever reason.
RE: Voynich anagramming - Anton - 29-06-2020
Yes, for every case there is the "dominating" anagram. Curious...
RE: Voynich anagramming - Torsten - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 03:53 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.These examples all have in common that one of the words in each group is responsible for at least 95% of all instances.
It doesn't seem useful to wonder if the rare cases are transliteration errors, or scribal errors.
They are simply rare, for whatever reason.
Rare words occur in a systematic way. The word frequency distribution behaves as expected according to Zipf's law (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Also rare words usually follow the known constraints in the combinations of symbols (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). 'Isolated' words (i.e. without any similar word type) usually appear just once, while for the most frequent types also many similar words exists (Timm & Schinner 2020, p. 6).
One counter example is for instance the word [chedy]. [chedy] is rare in Currier A but it is the most frequent word in Currier B (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Without knowing Currier B [chedy] would probably be seen as scribal error of [cheody] or [chey].
RE: Voynich anagramming - bi3mw - 29-06-2020
One would have to take a closer look where the "weak / rare" anagrams are in the text. For example, "lo" (15) is preferably at the end of the line. This can be coincidence or not.
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RE: Voynich anagramming - Torsten - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 04:00 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, for every case there is the "dominating" anagram. Curious...
Examples without a "dominating" anagram exists:
%coverage wordlength sortedletters [anagrams] (counts)
0.10821939 5 alor [arol, olar, oral, alor, loar] (12, 11, 10, 7, 1)
0.023755478 2 as [as, sa] (5, 4)
0.007918492 3 aadr [daar, dara, adar] (1, 1, 1)
However, in the case of the high frequency examples there is always only one "dominating" word type.
RE: Voynich anagramming - Torsten - 29-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 05:27 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One would have to take a closer look where the "weak / rare" anagrams are in the text. For example, "lo" (15) is preferably at the end of the line. This can be coincidence or not.
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It is not a coincidence. See for instance other short words types like [ro] or [yd]:
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RE: Voynich anagramming - doranchak - 30-06-2020
(29-06-2020, 07:26 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, in the case of the high frequency examples there is always only one "dominating" word type.
We can try to measure this directly by computing variance for the vord frequencies.
Here are all anagram groups, where the group covers at least 0.1% of the entire VMS, sorted by variance (the first number):
Code:
15.76 0.10821939 5 alor [arol, alor, loar, olar, oral] (12, 7, 1, 11, 10)
34.4 0.15836984 15 cdehkoy [dokechy, dcheoky, okechdy, ykechod, oekchdy, ockhedy, chkeody, dchokey, chokedy, ekchody, okchedy, ckheody, chekody, kcheody, kechody] (1, 2, 4, 1, 1, 6, 1, 1, 3, 1, 25, 5, 3, 5, 1)
52.0 0.17420684 9 ceehky [kcheey, ekchey, chekey, kechey, chkeey, cheeky, keechy, ckheey, eeckhy] (5, 1, 7, 1, 13, 24, 3, 11, 1)
64.0 0.12141688 2 loor [olor, orol] (31, 15)
72.5 0.1055799 4 kloy [koly, ykol, okyl, olky] (3, 14, 1, 22)
76.0 0.1055799 5 cchhkoy [chckhoy, chockhy, ckhochy, chokchy, kchochy] (1, 21, 1, 16, 1)
76.22222 0.12141688 3 chklo [chkol, ckhol, kchol] (3, 22, 21)
81.80247 0.15573035 9 cehoty [ytcheo, chotey, otchey, eocthy, tochey, cheoty, choety, octhey, otechy] (1, 9, 31, 1, 1, 5, 1, 6, 4)
89.9375 0.17420684 8 cehkoy [ocheky, choeky, cheoky, okechy, chokey, okchey, ockhey, ykecho] (1, 1, 10, 6, 7, 32, 7, 2)
90.8 0.15836984 10 cdehoty [dcheoty, ctheody, tcheody, chotedy, octhedy, chetody, oetchdy, otchedy, otechdy, chteody] (1, 6, 6, 2, 2, 2, 1, 34, 5, 1)
109.43999 0.1003009 5 chloot [tochol, octhol, ctholo, chotol, otchol] (1, 1, 1, 7, 28)
112.5 0.1055799 4 ccehhty [chetchy, chtchey, checthy, chcthey] (4, 1, 28, 7)
112.80555 0.16100934 6 cdhoty [dchoty, otchdy, chtody, tchody, cthody, octhdy] (1, 30, 2, 8, 18, 2)
115.6875 0.12933537 4 cehloy [cheoly, ycheol, lochey, olchey] (5, 14, 1, 29)
120.240005 0.16628835 5 cehkoqy [qokechy, qockhey, qokchey, qoekchy, qocheky] (13, 18, 30, 1, 1)
132.5 0.12669587 4 adly [daly, aldy, ydal, dlay] (30, 14, 3, 1)
150.64 0.12405638 5 cdehty [cthedy, chetdy, chtedy, ytched, tchedy] (10, 1, 2, 1, 33)
162.56001 0.14253286 5 cehhksy [shkechy, shckhey, shkchey, sheckhy, shekchy] (1, 12, 1, 35, 5)
169.0 0.110858895 2 cdehpy [cphedy, pchedy] (8, 34)
186.0 0.11877739 5 ehksy [sheyk, sheky, kshey, ekshy, shkey] (1, 36, 6, 1, 1)
200.56001 0.12933537 5 cdehloy [dolchey, cheoldy, lcheody, olchedy, lochedy] (2, 5, 3, 38, 1)
202.5 0.23227577 4 chky [ckhy, kchy, chky, ykch] (39, 30, 18, 1)
232.66667 0.18212533 3 lor [olr, lor, rol] (6, 43, 20)
240.25 0.10821939 2 akry [ykar, kary] (36, 5)
244.1875 0.26922873 8 chkoy [ockhy, ykcho, chkoy, okchy, kchoy, choky, ychok, ckhoy] (13, 6, 1, 39, 2, 39, 1, 1)
247.5 0.14781186 4 eekloy [ykeeol, keeoly, olkeey, lokeey] (13, 1, 40, 2)
252.25 0.110858895 4 chos [scho, chos, ochs, chso] (1, 38, 1, 2)
256.6875 0.10821939 4 aiinor [aroiin, oiinar, roaiin, oraiin] (1, 1, 1, 38)
272.8889 0.10821939 3 klo [lko, kol, olk] (3, 37, 1)
280.22223 0.12141688 3 cdehkoqy [qockhedy, qokchedy, qokechdy] (4, 39, 3)
289.0 0.1003009 2 sy [sy, ys] (36, 2)
313.55557 0.16892783 6 cdehopy [ocphedy, pochedy, opchedy, pcheody, cpheody, podchey] (1, 2, 50, 7, 3, 1)
314.0 0.13461436 3 deekloy [olkeedy, lkeeody, lokeedy] (42, 6, 3)
317.1875 0.17684633 4 chort [cthor, chtor, otchr, tchor] (45, 2, 1, 19)
335.4722 0.26658925 6 cehty [techy, cthey, echty, chety, chtey, tchey] (1, 51, 1, 25, 1, 22)
353.1875 0.21907829 4 ccehhky [checkhy, chckhey, chekchy, chcheky] (47, 30, 5, 1)
355.55557 0.11349839 3 deekly [ykeedl, lkeedy, lkedey] (1, 41, 1)
356.1875 0.25603124 4 choty [ytcho, choty, octhy, otchy] (2, 37, 10, 48)
361.0 0.1055799 2 deooty [otedyo, oteody] (1, 39)
390.88892 0.14517236 3 dhsy [ydsh, shdy, dshy] (1, 46, 8)
392.66666 0.12669587 3 llo [lol, oll, llo] (44, 3, 1)
420.25 0.11349839 2 dety [tedy, etyd] (42, 1)
432.5 0.14781186 4 dehosy [sheody, ysheod, oshedy, dsheoy] (50, 2, 3, 1)
462.25 0.11877739 2 acdhiino [chodaiin, odchaiin] (44, 1)
462.25 0.12405638 2 eeky [ekey, keey] (2, 45)
481.5 0.14781186 4 aiilno [olaiin, loaiin, aloiin, oiinal] (52, 1, 2, 1)
484.0 0.12141688 2 cehly [cheyl, lchey] (1, 45)
485.1389 0.34577417 6 cehky [ckhey, ychek, kchey, chkey, kechy, cheky] (32, 1, 21, 8, 4, 65)
505.6 0.19796231 5 cdeehy [chedey, cheedy, chdeey, dcheey, echedy] (1, 59, 1, 13, 1)
506.25 0.12405638 2 doy [ody, oyd] (46, 1)
507.0 0.14781186 4 deeky [dkeey, keedy, ekedy, ykeed] (1, 53, 1, 1)
552.25 0.12933537 2 lot [tol, otl] (48, 1)
579.0 0.2111598 4 chlot [otchl, tchol, chtol, cthol] (1, 13, 5, 61)
614.0 0.15836984 3 als [als, sal, las] (4, 55, 1)
620.56 0.18740432 5 ekoy [okey, ykeo, keoy, eoky, oeky] (64, 3, 2, 1, 1)
625.0 0.14253286 2 eklooq [qokeol, qoekol] (52, 2)
625.0 0.23227577 2 chkoqy [qokchy, qockhy] (69, 19)
648.0 0.15045135 3 dhosy [dshoy, shody, oshdy] (1, 55, 1)
660.75 0.17420684 4 adiino [daiino, doaiin, odaiin, aiinod] (1, 3, 61, 1)
672.22217 0.15309085 3 cdhkoqy [qodckhy, qockhdy, qokchdy] (1, 1, 56)
684.6667 0.15836984 3 loy [yol, loy, oly] (2, 1, 57)
760.6667 0.16628835 3 chhksy [chkshy, shkchy, shckhy] (1, 2, 60)
784.0 0.15309085 2 eoty [otey, yteo] (57, 1)
784.0 0.15309085 2 ors [ors, sor] (1, 57)
784.0 0.18476482 2 choqty [qotchy, qocthy] (63, 7)
812.25 0.15573035 2 eekyy [yekey, ykeey] (1, 58)
924.22217 0.25867075 3 los [sol, los, ols] (75, 5, 18)
1121.5 0.22171779 4 cchhty [chchty, chtchy, cthchy, chcthy] (1, 2, 2, 79)
1152.0 0.19796231 3 dor [dor, rod, odr] (73, 1, 1)
1182.6399 0.26922873 5 cdehoy [ycheod, chodey, odchey, ochedy, cheody] (2, 2, 1, 8, 89)
1228.25 0.24811275 4 deehsy [dsheey, ysheed, sheedy, shedey] (8, 1, 84, 1)
1332.25 0.2032413 2 aiinr [ariin, raiin] (2, 75)
1537.8401 0.2850657 5 deeoty [teeody, oteedy, doteey, yteeod, toeedy] (4, 100, 1, 1, 2)
1681.0 0.22171779 2 kloo [olko, okol] (1, 83)
1713.6 0.39592463 5 chty [chty, tchy, ytch, cthy, chyt] (13, 24, 1, 111, 1)
1722.25 0.22435728 2 ars [sar, ras] (84, 1)
1922.0 0.25339174 3 cdhoy [ochdy, odchy, chody] (1, 1, 94)
1932.5 0.3061817 4 deekoy [kodeey, ykeeod, okeedy, keeody] (1, 2, 105, 8)
2098.64 0.33521616 5 dlo [dol, lod, odl, old, ldo] (117, 2, 4, 3, 1)
2352.25 0.26131025 2 adm [dam, amd] (98, 1)
2450.25 0.26658925 2 cehor [cheor, rcheo] (100, 1)
2594.0 0.37216914 3 dekoy [okedy, ykeod, keody] (118, 1, 22)
2610.75 0.32201868 4 cdehly [ychedl, lchedy, ldchey, chedyl] (1, 119, 1, 1)
2688.8884 0.3299372 3 oty [oty, yto, toy] (115, 5, 5)
2809.0 0.2850657 2 ekoqy [qoeky, qokey] (1, 107)
3192.25 0.3035422 2 ehlos [sheol, lsheo] (114, 1)
3540.5 0.39064562 4 cchhky [chkchy, chckhy, cckhhy, chchky] (6, 140, 1, 1)
4096.0 0.34313467 2 akor [koar, okar] (1, 129)
4160.25 0.34577417 2 hos [osh, sho] (1, 130)
4280.6665 0.48302802 3 cdhy [chdy, dchy, chyd] (152, 30, 1)
4294.2227 0.38272712 3 aort [otar, taor, toar] (141, 1, 3)
4692.25 0.37744814 2 eeoty [oteey, yteeo] (140, 3)
5006.0 0.43551707 3 deoty [yteod, teody, otedy] (2, 8, 155)
5041.0 0.38008764 2 alot [toal, otal] (1, 143)
5329.0 0.39064562 2 koqy [qkoy, qoky] (1, 147)
5776.0 0.4117616 2 aiinot [toaiin, otaiin] (2, 154)
6576.889 0.49358603 3 eekoy [oekey, okeey, ykeeo] (3, 177, 7)
7140.25 0.46719104 2 cehlo [lcheo, cheol] (4, 173)
8556.25 0.498865 2 hlos [shol, lsho] (187, 2)
10920.25 0.56749195 2 aiikno [koaiin, okaiin] (3, 212)
11990.25 0.58332896 2 chor [chor, rcho] (220, 1)
15625.0 0.67571133 2 adl [ald, dal] (3, 253)
17290.188 0.8156047 4 deekoqy [qekeody, qoekedy, qokeedy, qkeeody] (1, 2, 305, 1)
17956.0 0.7232223 2 dy [dy, yd] (271, 3)
18225.0 0.7232223 2 dekoqy [qokedy, qkeody] (272, 2)
19881.0 0.7496173 2 ehsy [shey, yshe] (283, 1)
29412.25 0.9106266 2 cehy [echy, chey] (1, 344)
30800.25 0.9317426 2 ar [ar, ra] (352, 1)
31684.0 0.992451 2 or [or, ro] (366, 10)
34672.887 1.0584384 3 chlo [olch, chol, lcho] (1, 397, 3)
42642.25 1.1640184 2 dehsy [shedy, dshey] (427, 14)
45738.188 1.3804572 4 cdehy [dchey, chedy, cheyd, yched] (18, 501, 1, 3)
68382.25 1.459642 2 lo [lo, ol] (15, 538)113 anagram groups meet the "must represent at least 0.1% of the corpus" criterion.
Compare that to English:
Code:
7.1541293E10 0.22383854 3 now [now, own, won] (968402, 499652, 337617)
1.25681951E11 0.1097067 2 begin [being, begin] (797010, 87977)
1.49598765E11 0.10077346 2 adem [made, dame] (793242, 19682)
1.78637242E11 0.10941798 2 eehst [these, sheet] (863984, 18674)
1.81533934E11 0.109307155 2 amy [may, amy] (866950, 14814)
1.90379508E11 0.31221718 2 eehrt [there, three] (1695629, 822979)
1.99004324E11 0.11595957 2 cdlou [cloud, could] (21615, 913813)
2.02257973E11 0.119507425 2 alst [salt, last] (32293, 931755)
5.06195968E11 0.18378991 2 os [os, so] (29828, 1452777)
5.10275191E11 0.37606108 2 how [how, who] (802478, 2231149)
5.7033005E11 0.26922193 2 ehs [she, hes] (1841088, 330684)
5.9100116E11 0.1963258 2 eimt [item, time] (23099, 1560631)
9.6774141E11 0.25182322 2 emor [rome, more] (31971, 1999448)
1.7212299E12 0.33738402 2 ist [its, sit] (2672769, 48856)
1.7321482E12 0.32995 2 adis [aids, said] (14717, 2646939)
2.47497386E12 0.39310804 2 not [not, ton] (3158776, 12366)
2.50646364E12 0.39555076 2 ahs [ash, has] (12242, 3178605)
2.90015963E12 0.4244203 2 an [na, an] (8881, 3414852)
3.4682823E12 0.48521057 2 hist [hits, this] (94727, 3819392)
4.00354915E12 0.5438335 3 aer [are, era, ear] (4291754, 81370, 13897)
4.2227579E12 0.5659407 2 fmor [form, from] (227743, 4337613)
8.558395E12 1.0553013 2 no [no, on] (1331003, 7181950)
1.05388337E13 0.8078868 2 as [as, sa] (6504906, 12192)
1.56156088E13 1.0246451 2 asw [was, saw] (8084486, 181168)
1.40628713E14 3.1306357 3 adn [dan, and, dna] (43707, 25188846, 21805)Only 25 anagram groups meet the "must represent at least 0.1% of the corpus" criterion.