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+--- Thread: The sequence of images (/thread-3256.html)
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 29-06-2020
I get what you're saying, and I know what I said (no need to send it back to me - just reply).
In order to establish the validity of a hypothesis, it is best to start with the clearest evidence, something more easily explained and more easily understood. The cosmic comparison seems to be the best place to start. Once a foundation is established, other examples, more ambiguous on their own, can be shown to be similar.
The cosmic comparison quickly sparked another line of investigations into different versions of cloud-bands (like the two Oresme illustrations) and different types of cosmic boundaries by D. Hoffmann, starting with the various examples in the works of Christine de Pizan and and going from there to a big file of ninja contributions.
Because of my familiarity with armorial heraldry, I was able to reattach the traditional "nebuly" name to the otherwise 'wobbly' line enclosing the starry part of the VMs cosmos. Tradition and etymology confirm the validity of this interpretation, though it's not the only *possible* interpretation. The nebuly line occurs in many of the VMs illustrations, but the example that developed subsequently was the nebuly line found in the VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. representation of the 'critter'. The identification of the critter was hopping from one thing to another, because of ambiguity, and pareidolia and because it sat as an independent entity despite two other parts to the illustration (the 'wobbly' line and the bunch of short vertical marks), which had no plausible explanation and, therefore, were largely ignored. The recovery of traditional terminology gives the "wobbly' line a new interpretation, and the identification of the critter now must explain the critter itself, and the nebuly line / cosmic boundary as well. The best explanation for that, provided by JKP is the Agnus Dei. The structural comparison of the VMs with an old Agnus Dei image from a book (BNF Fr 13096), that was once in the library of Phillip the Good, Duke of Burgundy, shows a similar sequence of elements not found elsewhere.
Then there's the proposed identification of the critter as the emblem from the Golden Fleece, an idea that has been around for a while. So the discoveries were made by various investigators, my suggestion is that the provenance of these investigations should be considered in combination. Initially it seems that the provenance indicates Paris and Burgundy. Melusine can be tied to a number of possibilities, including both Paris and Burgundy. Incidentally, the Berry depiction of Melusine would have been created prior to 1395, while the Harley 334 version (if that is what it is) would have been after 1425. It is tradition that must determine the most probable interpretation.
The history of the Hundred Years' War reveals that separate indications of Paris and Burgundy is a false dichotomy. The Burgundians, in alliance with the English, controlled Paris from 1420 to 1435. Then Burgundy switched sides and the French monarchy came back to Paris, and the rest is history.
The investigation of provenance for different VMs 'identifications' might produce unique and irreconcilable results for each item. However, as investigative hypotheses accumulate, that is not the case. While not all results are equally specific, the accumulation of indicators, like an increasing number of overlapping circles in a Venn diagram, a certain set of fairly-well defined criteria are starting to emerge. Got another reference to Burgundy? Set it on the pile.
The investigation of the VMs rainbow You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has so much ambiguity and so many possibilities that any specific connection is going to appear quite weak. On the other hand, the provenance connecting la sainte Hostie de Dijon to a particular circumstance is, for VMs investigation, like a pinpoint is space-time. On its own, it would seem ridiculous. Given everything else, it just drops right into place.
RE: The sequence of images - -JKP- - 29-06-2020
It's quite true that the Melusine myth was very important to the Burgundians. Just as many of the nobility tried to trace their lineage back to gods, the Burgundians did so with the Melusine as well.
Also, when you leaf through manuscripts from the Burgundian libraries, the chain representing the order of the golden fleece is everywhere. It is prominently displayed around the necks in chronicles and in illuminations of the patrons.
I think R. Sale has a good case for a possible connection.
RE: The sequence of images - DONJCH - 30-06-2020
I wonder if the "chain" is represented in the lower figure of f85r?
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It's a long shot, I know.
RE: The sequence of images - -JKP- - 30-06-2020
That's an interesting thought, Don. I had a list of ideas for what the VMS chain might be, but I hadn't considered that one.
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 30-06-2020
If those are Golden Fleece necklaces, and ambiguity wins again; then who is she? Who is the lady with the necklaces?
One possibility could be Marie of Burgundy, heiress of Charles the Bold. She could be taking the 'Golden Fleece' honor with her, as she did, through her marriage into the HRE. But Charles the Bold died in battle in 1477.
I'm still trying to lean on the 'prior' side of the 1450 line, but you never know, might need to have my horizons expanded.
Are there any corresponding identifications for the other figures represented? Having a second identification always does wonders for a novel interpretation. The VMs requires two witnesses.
On second thought, how about Isabella of Portugal, Philip the Good's third wife, the one for whom the whole Golden Fleece bit got started. <<Obviously>> And the others? Her husband? Her father? And this is 1430. So it's back with a number of other investigative results. Results that presently seem IMO to culminate in the early 1430s.
La sainte Hostie came to Dijon in 1433 and was kept in the church, Sainte-Chapelle. The Golden Fleece was initiated in 1430, in Bruges, IIRC. Anyway, its anual meeting moved around, and in 1433 it was at Sainte-Chapelle. An interesting crossing of historical paths, make of it what you will.
The devil is in the details, right where you'd expect him to be.
RE: The sequence of images - Koen G - 30-06-2020
I just finished a fantastic book about Burgundy, and its place in the creation of the Low Countries as a political unity. The book (De Bourgondiërs by Bart Van Loo) has been very popular here in Flanders, especially for historical non-fiction. There's already a German translation You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
and an English translation is on the way with the publisher Head of Zeus.
Just to say, I'm in an "open to Burgundy" state of mind. In fact, the history and mythology of my home city is interwoven with Burgundy, because it is where Philip the Handsome married Joanna. On that very spot is still an establishment where people can organize their wedding feast.
That said, I still find it difficult to imagine how exactly Burgundy would fit into the picture.
The Zodiac emblems in the VM appear related to imagery from northern France, Alsace... Areas within or close to Burgundian territories. I am of the opinion that the clothing style is international "courtly" rather than strictly central European, which leaves Burgundy on the table as a strong contestant.
However, I don't see how the area owned by Burgundy under the reign of John the Fearless and Philip the Good accounts for everything we see in the VM. This area was not much more than the Burgundian homeland, Flanders (Bruges, Ghent, Ypres, Arras..) and later other parts of the Low Countries and Luxembourg.
More interesting in my opinion are the way courts in those days were interconnected. Burgundy had strong ties to the house of Bavaria. John the Pitiless of Bavaria was also active in the Low Countries (he employed Jan van Eyck for a while) but he also owned the area where modern day Austria, Germany and Czech Republic meet.
So what I'm saying is, these guys literally employed the same artists and advanced a shared material culture. Berry was also connected.
So I wonder, what do you mean precisely when you say there is a connection between Burgundy and the VM? The mere presence of relevant motifs, which can spread like memes from one court to the next? Or actual production in an area controlled by Burgundy?
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 30-06-2020
So, I hate to start out like a travel brochure: 'Burgundy was a vibrant mixture of cultures." Philip the Good not only had a cross cultural genetic inheritance, he acquired various lands through inheritance, purchase and conquest. And sometimes had to hold them through conquest. There were relations and influences from other countries. Looking through the KBR collection there are historical chronicles of various places, some of which were possessions, but others as far as Morea, Milan, or Hungary. So there are all kinds of influences floating about.
What we learn from the various motifs is the breadth and depth of the VMs artist's / author's information base. We learn from the Oresme cosmos that the VMs artist knows the Oresme cosmos. We learn from Melusine that the VMs artist knows the myth and the history of Melusine. We learn from the nebuly line that the artist knows and uses the traditional interpretation of the nebuly line (where it suits). We know from the Golden Fleece and the Agnus Dei of 1313, that the VMs artist knows Burgundian events and was probably in the Duke of Burgundy's library. And as such some may think it reasonable to presume that the VMs artist probably did not connect with Eskimos, Japanese, Aborigines, or any other culture so distant from the central European location that is suggested by the evidence considered above.
And we do know, from various examples above, and others (the Genoese Gambit, the papelonny pun) that the VMs is less than clearly expository, but instead makes clear efforts at achieving a certain level of covert transmission of information, as far as certain illustrations are concerned. It can sometimes be difficult to separate intentional obfuscation in the illustration from the lack of investigative familiarity.
The accumulated depth of detailed information from the VMs illustrations seems to be sufficient that it would most probably be acquired by direct experience. Achieving sufficient information and the familiarity to manipulate the images based on secondary sources seems more problematic, though not necessarily impossible.
RE: The sequence of images - -JKP- - 01-07-2020
(30-06-2020, 09:46 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
More interesting in my opinion are the way courts in those days were interconnected. Burgundy had strong ties to the house of Bavaria. John the Pitiless of Bavaria was also active in the Low Countries (he employed Jan van Eyck for a while) but he also owned the area where modern day Austria, Germany and Czech Republic meet.
So what I'm saying is, these guys literally employed the same artists and advanced a shared material culture. Berry was also connected.
...
Yes! This interests me as well.
RE: The sequence of images - Aga Tentakulus - 01-07-2020
The question is, why should a product of Greek mythology suddenly appear in a series of pictures in a possible herbal book of medicine from the 15th century.
What should the fleece mean?
And if I want to be precise, there is not even a melusine in the VM.
RE: The sequence of images - -JKP- - 01-07-2020
There might not be a Melusine in the VMS, but a woman emerging from a fish is more similar to a Melusine than it is to a mermaid.