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+--- Thread: The sequence of images (/thread-3256.html)
The sequence of images - R. Sale - 24-06-2020
From davidjackson: [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You have to look at the sequence of images, not each one individually! [/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]And more than just images, it is sequence itself that needs to be investigated.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Several folios are being discussed:[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as Melusine would imply a connection with Valois ancestry.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a combination of the Golden Fleece and the 1313 Agnus Dei (Golden Agnus) -more focused on Burgundy[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as the empty rainbow throne for la sainte Hostie de Dijon. (an obscure historical event and a perfect chronological fit)[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]If this is a series, what about VMs f80v? The page does't look that exciting. There is a large pool, with women wading in two rows, Eight in each row. Sixteen nymphs in a sea green pool. Is there anything particular about that? (Secondary interpretations or a deeper meaning?) Does You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have something to continue the sequence Or does this break it?[/font]
RE: The sequence of images - davidjackson - 24-06-2020
I think it is logical to assume that the water represents the same thing in all of these pages. The imagery is so similar, obviously a similar theme is being referenced.
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 26-06-2020
From the three VMs pages, f79v, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. & f82v. An investigation into potential connections with historical traditions reveals that each one has a provenance shared in common with the others. That is a connection with the Duchy of Burgundy.
The bus comes to a stop. The door opens and you get off. It's Dijon, long-time capitol of the Duchy of Burgundy - it's the mid-1430s. Still inside the most restrictive interpretation of the C-14 dating with time to spare.
But what about the sequence? VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does not fit the sequence of illustrations that have a traditional connections to items of potential investigative significance. VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does not appear to have a relation of significance with much of anything, perhaps it's the water.
Two rows of eight female nymphs are wading in a pool. There is no particular historical image for comparison, - <AFAIK> What's going on?
Think of the nymphs as beads on a abacus. In the top row, the third nymph has her arm raised. In the second row it's the sixth nymph. Three to the left in the top row. Six to the left in the second row. Three plus six is nine. And nine naked nymphs bathing could connect to the Muses - - and their friends.
Of course, it is only reasonable a reaction, such as: "That is the flimsiest, ding-dang, bottom-of-the-barrel explanation ever."
And that might be correct. But that is the beauty of it. In a situation viewed as a dichotomy, Either there is a connection or there is no connection. A flimsy connection is viewed as a flawed connection, and a flawed connection is no connection. But a flimsy connection is a connection for those who see it and still it blocks the way for those who deny it. See how well it works here.
Looking at the the 'second-rate' / 'shoddy' artistic skills of the VMs artist has lead to a serious underestimation of this person's structural and and constructive knowledge and skills. It's like the card-shark and the bumpkin. We start out as the bumpkin. [Newbold's folly] And our current concern has been the design on the back of the cards.
RE: The sequence of images - Aga Tentakulus - 27-06-2020
(24-06-2020, 08:50 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is logical to assume that the water represents the same thing in all of these pages. The imagery is so similar, obviously a similar theme is being referenced.
I think just the opposite.
F82r, why is the nymph standing in blue water on the side? If it didn't matter, why not green?
F84r, different bath colors.
Maybe you should look at it that way:
black coffee, coffee with milk, black and sugar.
It makes sense from a procedural point of view.
Grapes become juice, juice becomes wine.
Refinement: wine, brandy or vinegar.
From a medical point of view around 1400, absolutely comprehensible.
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 27-06-2020
The question is whether 79v, 80v, 81v, and 82v create a sequence of images that has this sort of subtle 'agenda', to create / reveal this progressive focus on a particular historical time and place. Does the sequence exist?
First there is the matter of image comparison. Can the comparison be accepted? But there is a second factor. That is the matter of provenance and sources.
Can a strong comparison be accepted if it lacks provenance?
Can a moderate comparison be accepted if it has some provenance?
Can a poor comparison be accepted if it has strong provenance?
And when a comparison is poor, why is that? Traditions from nearly 600 years ago have been omitted from the current set of relevant information. Can an unrecognized comparison be evaluated in any way? The recovery of relevant tradition is problematic on this level from the modern, investigative perspective.
The situation is just the opposite from the 15th century perspective. The traditions are an immediate part of daily life. The VMs author needed to use tradition and history in order to make a comparison that is grounded in the real world, but chose to disguise them. The more obvious examples then require a greater effort at disguise, making those examples even more difficult to recover. A variety tricks have been employed. The flimsy connection is an opportunity for voluntary self-disqualification.
RE: The sequence of images - Linda - 27-06-2020
(24-06-2020, 08:50 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is logical to assume that the water represents the same thing in all of these pages. The imagery is so similar, obviously a similar theme is being referenced.
I would go one step further and say that it is water being referenced.
RE: The sequence of images - Linda - 28-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 08:32 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(24-06-2020, 08:50 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is logical to assume that the water represents the same thing in all of these pages. The imagery is so similar, obviously a similar theme is being referenced.
I think just the opposite.
F82r, why is the nymph standing in blue water on the side? If it didn't matter, why not green?
F84r, different bath colors.
Maybe you should look at it that way:
black coffee, coffee with milk, black and sugar.
It makes sense from a procedural point of view.
Grapes become juice, juice becomes wine.
Refinement: wine, brandy or vinegar.
From a medical point of view around 1400, absolutely comprehensible.
Water with salt or other minerals vs water with no inclusions, perhaps? (Coffee with milk and/or sugar, vs black, black is blue)
Note that she has a tube, tubes are rivers. I see her as representing Colchis, which might work well with the OP idea of the Golden fleece being involved, both the myth and the order, with Geoffroy de Thoisy becoming pirate pimp in the name of Burgundy while at Colchis in 1444. So maybe more connections can be made of the disparate images, mythology and religion in this case.
RE: The sequence of images - Linda - 28-06-2020
(27-06-2020, 06:38 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The question is whether 79v, 80v, 81v, and 82v create a sequence of images that has this sort of subtle 'agenda', to create / reveal this progressive focus on a particular historical time and place. Does the sequence exist?
I would say no.
1. You are talking about a sequence that only shows up every second page, starting near the middle of the quire. This seems strange way to create a sequence.
2. I don't even think the current page order is correct. Instead of 75 thru 84 i think it is 76, 80, 84, 77, 78, 81, 82, 75, 79, 83.
This makes your pages 10 12 14 and 16 out of 20 become something like pages 3, 18, 12, and 14, no longer much of a sequence at all.
3. Can the comparison be accepted? It can be accepted as a suggested comparison, but if you are asking if it can be accepted as the answer i would say not at this time, at least.
4. Can a strong comparison be accepted if it lacks provenance? Answer: Depends on what the comparison is. Provenance, strong or not, in no way gives a visual comparison strength, although it might add strength to the narrative. Currently the provenance appears to be the only narrative, there is nothing about why these images should be important enough to be copied, what we are to gain from them, or how they fit in with the rest of the images.
5. When a comparison is poor, why is that? Answer: Because it does not match visually.
I was just looking at different versions of la sfera, and i do note that there can be major differences in how images denoting the same items compare, and sometimes you need to compare them to understand what the least clear version represents, but if you are making the point that certain pictures from books in someone's library are referenced, i dont see how you can allow for differences since you are saying they are specific versions and not the concepts. Or are you saying that other styles of the drawings are also allowed? Seems a poor point to make to use another style of the drawing to denote a specific one it doesn't resemble.
6. Similarly, unrecognized comparison also means they don't look the same, no matter what forgotten traditions might have been involved.
7. The VMs author needed to use tradition and history in order to make a comparison that is grounded in the real world, but chose to disguise them. < So you are saying they don't look the same because the answer would be too clear to the contemporary reader? Although i agree that some obfuscation has been purposeful, i don't know about applying that to copies of pictures. There should be some elements that would leave those who recognize them without doubt. I think the Oresme example with the 43 undulations is pretty convincing, despite other differences, but the others in quire 13, i have major doubts about.
8. The more obvious examples then require a greater effort at disguise, making those examples even more difficult to recover. A variety tricks have been employed. < Again i agree but not in context of these copies of drawings. Can you explain exactly what you mean in terms of the tricks employed. I fear it is easy to use this idea as an explanation of why things dont look more the same, when the real reason is that they simply aren't the same. When i say things are obfuscated, i mean the nymph size vs the pool size is not to scale, not that things haven't been drawn to look like what they are meant to be, although from a quick glance things could be thought to be as they are not drawn, like the mermaid, there is no mermaid. I do not think there is Melusine either, the de Berry version has tail of a lizard and wings, and wears a hat. If anything she has more in common with the vms dragon. Even the fishier versions found elsewhere do not resemble the vms fish.
9. The flimsy connection is an opportunity for voluntary self-disqualification. < I do not know what this means. If the connection is flimsy, disqualify yourself for seeing it?
RE: The sequence of images - R. Sale - 28-06-2020
Linda,
Thanks for your detailed response. I do see there are a few areas of agreement. Let's start there. Ellie Velinska posted her discussion of the VMs cosmos back in 2014, with comparisons to the c. 1410 (Paris) Oresme' illustration (BNF Fr. 565) and the 1425-1449 (Paris) de Metz illustration (Harley 334).
Starting with the central Earth, the basis of comparative similarity is that all three examples consist of an inverted T-O structure. Both the Oresme and the de Metz representations are pictorial. If the VMs was intended as a copy, it would also be pictorial, at whatever skill level the artist could manage. The VMs is not pictorial; it is linguistic. The assumption would be that it is descriptive. The change from one method of communication (pictorial) to another (linguistic) is called a code shift. There is no way that *any* similarity of appearance can be maintained even if the objects being represented were intended to be identical. This is one trick of disguise.
The second area of comparison is the field of stars. The Oresme and de Metz illustrations are very similar: blue background, golden stars of an asterisk-style construction, scattered about and surrounding the Earth. The VMs background is different, the stars are polygonal; they have internal space between the construction lines, even though asterisk-type stars are found in many VMs illustrations. And the stars occur in several linear segments that encircle the Earth, rather than appearing to be randomly placed.
Latin has two words, cingere and circumdare, either of which can be used to denote either 'to surround' or 'to encircle'. The Oresme and de Metz images lean toward the "surround" depiction. The VMs clearly leans more toward the "encircle" depiction. This is a play on words. This is another trick. It doesn't significantly alter the structure - compared with with the other Oresme illustration (BNF Fr. 1082) which has no stars at all. It does clearly alter the appearance.
Then there is the cosmic boundary. The Oresme depiction is a scallop-shell patterned version of a cloud -band. The de Metz version just uses 'plain' lines. The VMs has a nebuly line. The Berry Apocalypse has a good example of a nebuly line as a cosmic boundary. Other illustrations, the Bedford Hours, use indented and rayonny lines to create flaming / solar representations of a cosmic boundary. The recovery of traditional terminology derived from heraldry reveals the cloud-based origins of the term 'nebuly' in Latin (or 'gewolkt' in German). The underlying equivalence is confirmed by the etymology and by the structure (43 undulations), not by the appearance. This is another trick: no etymology - no comprende. It has worked for a long time. The cloud-band in the VMs central Rosette would match the Oresme illustration much better, but it has been placed elsewhere. This is another trick. It's not that the artist couldn't do better, it's that it wasn't done properly. As if the investigator creates the rules with no acknowledgement of the artist's history and tradition.
I believe the underlying structures of the cosmic representations in the VMs and the Oresme illustrations are the same. They sure don't look he same, but they are built on the same cosmological structure. This is significant because this is a very uncommon type of structure, in comparison with the poly-concentric planetary structures <poly-concentric elemental and planetary structures> that were typical at that time. And both examples come from Paris. At the same time as maintaining this uncommon structure, I believe the VMs artist has done as much as possible to create differences in visual appearance. The point and purpose of this is to disguise traditional content, so that those who rely solely on appearance will fail, and only those who comprehend the 'true' reality of tradition, based on structure will have a chance of success in understanding the VMs. [[Of course, the manuscript has been mutilated, so who knows if that is still possible.]]
Interesting that you mention Geoffroy de Thoisy, caught playing pirate in the Black Sea in the 1440s, and bailed out by the ruler of Trebizond - just one of a number of potential conduits for Armenian information coming into the Duchy of Burgundy.
Unrecognized comparisons are things that occur in the VMs where the investigator has no clue what they are or what to do with them, e.g. 'wobbly lines, scaly patterns on tubs, large circles like wheels with eight curved spokes, double rainbows. They do look the same, but the traditions have been forgotten. The bell is there - it just doesn't ring by itself.
The flimsy connection is there. it performs its function as a connection. Those who fault its weakness, are, in essence, denying its existence. This is another trick that thwarts recognition and investigation. Verification is determined by whether further investigation leads to new discoveries of historical traditions. The nature of the situation is not for things to be obvious and undeniable. The nature of the situation is that connections are subtle and disguised for people who were immersed in their own relevant traditions, which causes all kinds of problems for investigators who have 'never heard of such a thing' (e.g. papelonny).
RE: The sequence of images - Linda - 28-06-2020
(28-06-2020, 09:39 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.mega-quote shortened for your viewing pleasure - KG
Ok so the self disqualification is for those who don't see the structure similarities, plays on words with visuals, or the traditional context. I get that now i think. What it looks like is not all there is to it, i do agree there.
It is too bad you picked the Oresme cosmos example, i already think that connection exists. It is the others that are more difficulty for me to accept.