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+--- Thread: Burma Shave (/thread-3254.html)
Burma Shave - R. Sale - 22-06-2020
In a recent series of postings, someone made a comment using the term "Burma Shave". Since then I have wondered how many of the ninja group might actually have an accurate cultural interpretation for this old, rural American tradition.
So, a question to everyone: Did you know about it *before* you looked it up? Sure there are those signs and poems and so on. But that's not it. The thing is that along country roads and highways, these signs were nailed to fence posts, sometimes a quarter mile apart. What matters in the interpretation of tradition is understanding the situation on the ground.
The tradition of Melusine in the Valois dukes of France is confirmed in the evidence of the Duke of Berry and continued two generations after in his brother's line in Burgundy. This is the situation on the ground. Research has recovered the images in the de Metz text from Paris (Harley 334). Who is it that was pictured on f57? According to the tradition on the ground, this is Melusine. There is no alternative, unless 'anonymous' is satisfactory.
So now, if we come to the VMs with an adequate background in established tradition during the historical period provided by the C-14 parchment dates, then who is Ms. Ladyfish on VMs f79v? It is Melusine! And the exact details of the representation are not relevant. The time and the difficulty involved in this recognition are an indication of the magnitude of the cultural gap in the interpretation of tradition.
These signs are clear:
Harley 334 is dated to the second quarter of the 1400s, (1425-1449), or, alternatively, 1430-1440.
The Golden Fleece is 1430 and after in Burgundy.
La sainte Hostie de Dijon starts in the early 1430s, probably 1433.
...
And the last sign says; "Burma Shave".
RE: Burma Shave - davidjackson - 22-06-2020
I know about thanks to Bill Bryson. Other than his amiable wittering about it, it may as well be from China.
But it's an interesting comparison - if you grow up with a semiotic then it's part of you. Otherwise it needs careful and sometimes surprisingly long explaining.
RE: Burma Shave - Koen G - 22-06-2020
No idea... When I saw the thread title, I thought the spammers had returned with men's toiletries.
RE: Burma Shave - R. Sale - 22-06-2020
Koen,
Thanks for not giving it the ax, or should I say razor. I don't think that it's made anymore.
David said: if you grow up with a semiotic then it's part of you.
But don't we all grow up in a semiotic environment? We inhabit a semiotic environment.
Likewise isn't the VMs going to be the product of someone's environment. And the question is whether enough of it is showing and we are capable of seeing it. Capability has improved from Newbold's interpretation of Andromeda on to BNF Fr. 565.
What does it take to establish contact with the semiotic environment of the VMs? A list of independent investigations that all have a common factor in their provenance.
RE: Burma Shave - Linda - 22-06-2020
You are mistaking the signs along the way as being equal to Burma Shave when in fact they are just marketing blurbs that have nothing to do but entertain and try to sell something, just like you are using similar blurbs to equal your Duke of Berry idea. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with anything. Non sequitur.
![[Image: 46d314e2d587adb719152f05cde295af.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/46/d3/14/46d314e2d587adb719152f05cde295af.jpg)
No wolf in BurmaShave, no hot red...only the neat and trim shave connects the rhyme with Burma Shave and that is because that is what they are selling, the dream of hot red if you groom with the product, no matter what kind of scary hairy creature you may have been to start with. Except that most of them didnt even have to do with shaving either.
![[Image: raycrockett.jpg]](https://s22735.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/raycrockett.jpg)
You are selling the dream of the Duke's library and conference table, and at least your points are more relevant than Red riding hood is to shaving, but i don't think bringing up Burma Shave helps your argument, it is a cultural tradition from a different time which has no bearing on the gaps you wish to bridge, unless you mean to place the origin of the vms into that time period.
There is nothing in what you have said about the lady fish combo on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that convinces me it is Melusine, least of all "exact details of the representation are not relevant."
The owner of the book with the picture also owning other books with pictures that are comparable to other vms images and being related to other things that involve icons that may look like other vms things also do not convince me, but keep going, by all means, there must be more if that is the connection, in fact there should be more if that is in fact the connection. Coincidences are great but what is the meaning?
What would be the story that includes random pictures from books (mythical, religious, and scientific in nature, respectively) and a pic of a charm worn by their owner and his buddies at their mancave meetings, drawn amongst naked ladies pointing rings and spindels everywhere?
Back to supposed Melusine, why is she holding a hand up to spray? Why does she share her bath with a bunch of animals? Isn't she supposed to have a key or two? Where is her dad? Her mom? Her suitors? None of what is there seems to jive with her story, and the actual elements from her story are missing. To me that says she is likely to be meant as someone else.
RE: Burma Shave - R. Sale - 23-06-2020
Well. I could only say what has already been said"
"Otherwise it needs careful and sometimes surprisingly long explaining."
Perhaps I should quit there. But this does emphasize the fact that traditions can and do sometimes translate very poorly from one "culture' to another, leading to that surprisingly long and tedious explanation . The topic of traditional interpretation becomes problematic when the original meaning is lost - whether it's about the time delay in driving past the signs on fence posts, or the ten day run-up to a recent VMs theory, as a contemporary example. Or it's about the presumed medieval distinction and "celebrity" of being a descendant of some mythical creature or personality, back 600 years ago <from our time> and in cultures throughout history.
The Valois line claimed descent from the Luxembourg side of the myth of Melusine through their mother. Jean de Berry claimed possession of the Lusignan castle, which is another significant side of the myth. The event is commemorated in Tres Riches Heures of Jean de Berry. Jean de Berry commissioned the Romance of Melusine. Philip the Good still commemorated Melusine in 1454.
At the time of manufacture in 1430-1440 for Harley 334, the city of Paris was subject to "Valois" influence and control. The tradition that the rulers of Burgundy were descended from this mythical heiress continued throughout this time. There are various relevant depictions of Melusine; some with wings, some without, or as a dragon. Given these conditions at the time of its creation, the primary interpretation of the illustration of Harley 334 f. 57 has to be a representation of Melusine, because that was the semiotic environment of that time and location.
The VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. representation of pond critters then is comparable to the Harley 334 [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]illustration. If the VMs was created during the 1400s, this same semiotic environment was the one that existed.[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Only recently, discussion of the VMs 'Mermaid' did not produce any firm conclusion. The possibility of Melusine was floated around but there was nothing conclusive. The connection of Melusine to the Valois ancestry provides a valid basis for traditional interpretation. Are there other options, different interpretations to be considered?[/font]
RE: Burma Shave - nablator - 23-06-2020
(23-06-2020, 05:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Given these conditions at the time of its creation, the primary interpretation of the illustration of Harley 334 f. 57 has to be a representation of Melusine, because that was the semiotic environment of that time and location.
Hello R. Sale,
No, it does not have to be Mélusine. The text to the right says something about the sea ("mer") and it is a typical depiction of the sea with perfectly normal fish and mermaids. EDIT: it starts with "En la mer dynde" (in the sea of India) - old name of the Arabian sea - then I can't read much, something about exotic fish it seems... the title is "de poissons dynde" (about the fish of India).
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Similar legends existed elsewhere than Lusignan (Poitou), especially "fish-tail" variants of the story, the dragon-tail lady of Lusignan popularized by Jean d'Arras being a late avatar of much older and widespread legends. Wikipedia has a simplified and non-exhausitive map (see locations in the text):
![[Image: 1024px-Karte_verbreitung_melusine.svg.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Karte_verbreitung_melusine.svg/1024px-Karte_verbreitung_melusine.svg.png)
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RE: Burma Shave - DONJCH - 23-06-2020
Of the various explanations for that figure, Melusine makes most sense to me.
You certainly have drawn some interesting connections there.
I also get what you say about semiotics, I recall one urban myth from childhood that stretched across at least two States for a period of at least two years. I won't bore you with the details but it was something every kid Knew and when I think back I wonder how widespread it was.
RE: Burma Shave - R. Sale - 23-06-2020
Thanks, both.
I realize that there are other versions of the myth from other locations and different times, and therefore there have been several historical interpretations and incarnations of this story.
I thought I was being reasonably careful when I said: "Given these conditions at the time of its creation, the primary interpretation of the illustration of Harley 334 f. 57 has to be a representation of Melusine, because that was the semiotic environment of that time and location."
That is; The given conditions for the provenance of Harley 334, being made in Paris in the second quarter of the 1400s, would indicate (IMO) that the *primary interpretation* would reference the Valois connection to Melusine. That does not eliminate a secondary interpretation. But it does require the secondary interpretation to also be prominent, to some degree, in Paris in that time period. So.... what is that alternate interpretation in Paris at that time?? And what historical evidence supports that alternate presence and interpretation?
+ And, yes indeed, Oz does have its own semiotic environment and one could start with 'Waltzing Matilda" - for old-timers.
RE: Burma Shave - Koen G - 23-06-2020
I like to keep multiple tracks open for this figure. No matter how popular Melusine would have been in any European region, a figure like Jonah would have been at least as well-known. Given the fact that we can see the figure's human legs and the similarity to Jonah iconography, I cannot eliminate the possibility that the figure is based on a Jonah archetype. Or any other story where someone is swallowed by a whale. I also don't want to exclude the possibility that the VM plays both the fish and mermaid card at the same time.