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External text lookup - Mark Knowles - 21-05-2020
I was wondering if anyone had explored the idea that Voynichese words are a code for looking up other words from a different text such as the bible. I would guess this has been thought about.
At this time it is not my opinion that this is the case, but I think it is an intriguing idea. It still leaves one with problems like repeated words amongst others. It also seems pretty impractical method to use. It also would make the Voynich nightmarishly difficult to decipher as you would not only have to identity the other text, but also how the individual word lookup code works.
(I am still going with a verbose homophonic cipher with filler text, but I think other ideas can be worth exploring.)
RE: External text lookup - Stephen Carlson - 21-05-2020
(21-05-2020, 03:38 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was wondering if anyone had explored the idea that Voynichese words are a code for looking up other words from a different text such as the bible. I would guess this has been thought about.Before the advent of printing, the Bible didn't really have a standard text.
RE: External text lookup - Mark Knowles - 21-05-2020
(21-05-2020, 03:49 PM)Stephen Carlson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well maybe there was another document with a standard text or maybe they used a specific bible text even though there was no standard.(21-05-2020, 03:38 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was wondering if anyone had explored the idea that Voynichese words are a code for looking up other words from a different text such as the bible. I would guess this has been thought about.Before the advent of printing, the Bible didn't really have a standard text.
RE: External text lookup - Koen G - 21-05-2020
The Bible is hardly standard now, with all the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. available. If the VM code refers to words in another book, our efforts are doomed unless we know the exact manuscript that was used. (And even then...)
RE: External text lookup - Mark Knowles - 21-05-2020
(21-05-2020, 04:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Bible is hardly standard now, with all the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. available. If the VM code refers to words in another book, our efforts are doomed unless we know the exact manuscript that was used. (And even then...)
As I said I don't actually think at this time that this is the case, because even if that hypothesis is true there are still significant problems to resolve with the text. In a similar way it seems unlikely that it is an artificial language. So there seems to be more to Voynichese than either of those two options, though in theory it might be a combination of words from book lookup and something else, but my instinct is to doubt this as well.
I raised it as an example of a way in which the Voynich could, as you say, be virtually indecipherable without being nonsense.
As an example of this apparently I think the Beale Cipher uses the American Declaration of Independence as its source of words for its first part.
RE: External text lookup - -JKP- - 21-05-2020
I've often wondered if the VMS makes references to other texts. References would be repetitive, enigmatic (if enciphered), and would not easily resolve into natural language.
I'm hoping this is not the case. I'm hoping the VMS is somewhat self-contained, but I think we have to consider that it might not be.
RE: External text lookup - ReneZ - 22-05-2020
(21-05-2020, 03:38 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was wondering if anyone had explored the idea that Voynichese words are a code for looking up other words from a different text such as the bible. I would guess this has been thought about.
See for example here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This type of cipher is only conceivable in the presence of reasonably easily available printed books, i.e. well after the creation of the Voynich MS.
In fact, the authors quoted in the above web page (Leighton and Matyas) write You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that the first evidence of this dates to 1526.
RE: External text lookup - Mark Knowles - 22-05-2020
(22-05-2020, 04:54 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This type of cipher is only conceivable in the presence of reasonably easily available printed books, i.e. well after the creation of the Voynich MS.
I am not sure if that is absolutely necessary though it seems that much easier with standard printed books.
As an example text one could in a English context consider the Magna Carta, this is a well defined text. Or maybe the Lord's Prayer or some standard universal Christian text. Or standard political/governmental text like the Declaration of Independence.
I can see plenty of problems with this idea as there ought to be lots of specific vocabulary found in the Voynich not in a standard text. So some kind of manipulation would be necessary on top of the lookup. It would also be unbelievably slow to read and write. Though the shorter the lookup text the easier it would be.
RE: External text lookup - ReneZ - 22-05-2020
Mark, did you read the links?
The whole idea can only be conceived in the presence of standard printed text.
RE: External text lookup - Mark Knowles - 22-05-2020
(22-05-2020, 02:38 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, did you read the links?
The whole idea can only be conceived in the presence of standard printed text.
Rene, yes I read the page that you linked to. I daresay that some forms of book lookup method would require a printed text. However I would think it more than conceivable to have a book lookup that did not require a printed text.
As a simple example what if you select a word number in sequence from a text and the Voynich word was simply a number, which would fit neatly with positionality, I imagine. So ->
The Voynich word could be translate into 300 + 40 + 7
Which equal 347, so you can then find the 347th word in the text and substitute that. How does that method require a printed text?
There are obviously other methods of looking up words that could be used.