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+--- Thread: Pizan's pool party (/thread-3214.html)
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Pizan's pool party - R. Sale - 20-05-2020
In the investigations of the bathers in Quire 13, a number of illustrations have been considered. Among these is the image from Christine de Pizan's Book of the Queen - aka Harley 4431 f. 183. This shows Christine and the Sibyl dropping by to see the nine Muses bathing, with Pegasus flying by.
The Book of the Queen is a compilation of several works and the illustration is from Le Livre du chemin de long estude. A second version of this text with a very similar illustration, tending more to pastels, can be found in BNF fr. 836 f5v.
A third version of the text, BNF Fr. 1643, has no illustrations, only blank spaces apparently intended for illustrations.
The recently availability from the Royal Library of Belgium of texts from the Library of the Dukes of Burgundy has a number of manuscripts by Christine de Pizan. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Among them are two versions of Le Livre du chemin de long estude.. MS 10982 and MS 10983. Both of these mss. have versions of the 'Muses & Pegasus' illustration that differ from the above examples and from each other.
See. KBR MS 10982 I 32 and KBR MS 10983 I 29 (link below - if it works)
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This last example has the strongest similarities with the VMs pool drawings.
This shows the presence of Parisian texts in the Burgundian library and the potential influence of the works of Christine de Pizan on the VMs illustrations. It is a second indicator that the VMs artist *may have had* access to the Burgundian library. (#1 is BNF Fr. 13096 f. 18; Apocalypse of S Jean 1313.)
RE: Pizan's pool party - Koen G - 20-05-2020
Ah, very nice. I had not yet found these images because their reader is bad for my blood pressure.
I am currently reading a fabulous book about the Burgundians, so it is a treat to see some of their manuscripts.
However, why do you think this image is particularly relevant, compared to for example a Balneis scene with female bathers?
RE: Pizan's pool party - R. Sale - 21-05-2020
Hey Koen, you're sitting on a goldmine, over there. Time to start digging. I had some difficulties to start with. It seemed like when I came back on different days, that the items were in a different order, which made for some difficulty in sorting things out. It was like the garden of shifting manuscripts, investigating one I'd seen the week before, or confusing two with the same title. For the last week or so the sequence seems more stable.
On the other hand, a Google search of the pages for 'Christine' will pull a dozen or so items, many of which are sparse in the image department. If there is only one image, it is generally a presentation, so not much to see. The real beauty is MS 9392, lots of illustrations, but made in 1460 in Lille. Still need to look at it more carefully, but sort of have the feeling that it's gone past "VMs" time.
I've been chasing cloud-bands, looking at all the varieties of cosmic boundaries. When I saw the bathing Muses in MS 10983, something just said "VMs". And besides, there is the whole, Paris - cloud-band - Oresme thing and de Pizan is part of that. It is now clear that de Pizan made it to the Burgundy library in force and other Parisian influences along with hers. Remember that the Anglo-Burgundian alliance kept the French forces out of Paris between 1420 and 1435.
I know that a lot of balneological comparisons have been made, but what were the results? What do you - or anyone - think is the best medieval source illustration to compare with the VMs bathers?
RE: Pizan's pool party - DONJCH - 21-05-2020
There was a thread about 2 years ago where Marco posted about 10 really great links.
Do you think I can find it?
Found it!
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RE: Pizan's pool party - Paris - 21-05-2020
Here's the image
RE: Pizan's pool party - bi3mw - 21-05-2020
There is indeed a great similarity with the pool illustrations in the VMS. Can anyone here read the corresponding text ? It would be good to know in which context the illustration stands.
A full text edition of "Le Livre du Chemin de long estude" is available You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , but the text to the illustration is hard to filter out. One could count the verses, but that is very tedious.
Edit: In this edition, the text starts at about verse 812 ( page 15 ), ".... Qui se baignoient toutes nues, En la fontaine en verite ....".
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RE: Pizan's pool party - R. Sale - 21-05-2020
Thanks for the image and the poem. You night-shift ninjas are awesome!
Yes, there was a lot of discussion about the bathers and balneological literature. Just not sure if that VMs discussion got to this particular illustration. I have seen where the four illustrations are compared in a literary footnote, now that I know to look for it.
As it turns out, according to the info provided, the two versions in the Burgundy library are dated 1403-1404 - produced in Paris at the same time but they are different.
It's BNF Fr. 836 that comes in next, dated 1407-1409, and that is the image that matches with the image in Harley 4431.
BNF Fr. 836 was in the library of the Duke of Berry 1413-1416.
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My view of the VMs starts with the comparison to the BNF fr. 565 cosmos. The provenance of this source sets a starting point of Paris about 1410, and continues on from there. And during the time that has followed that recovery, provenance from other investigations has been shown to be congruent. The provenance from comparisons in various VMs investigations starts to accumulate. Both the 'Oresme' and the 'Berry Apocalypse' were in the same library. It's as if the story starts in the Berry library and then moves to the Burgundy library. A number of the de Pizan books clearly came from Paris to the Burgundy library.
Then there is the situation with various cosmic diagrams attributed to Gossuin de Metz. The Burgundy library has two version: MS 11184 (France, c. 1350) and MS 11185 (<Omit>, c. 1325), both of which show the poly-concentric structure of planets in the second, elements and planets in the first. This is not the uncommon, simplified structure of inverted T-O earth, surrounding stars, and cosmic boundary of Oresme 565, the VMs, and the Paris (1430-1440) of de Metz (Harley 331). Even though the VMs makes the choice of linguistic representation rather than pictorial representation, this is still an uncommon group with provenance initially tied to Paris.
Third there are the elements more specifically located to the Duchy of Burgundy, and it all seems to fit into a time between 1410 and 1430, putting VMs completion after 1430.
RE: Pizan's pool party - Paris - 22-05-2020
The text is not easy to understand, even for French people (like me).
Because I am an expert in nothing, be tolerant with my interpretation and translation
The old french text should be :
Ne erbes flourans nautres delis
Ne chose bonne a medicine
Prouffitable herbe flour racine
Nez poulieul ysoppe et mante
Ne cuidez mie que ie mente
Dont tout le lieu ne soit seme
Qui paz ordre est bien assesme
[image]
Ainsi de grant desir ardant
Aloye par tout regardant
Les tres beaulz lieux que ie veoye
Et a tout aviser veoye
Se bonnement faire el peusse
Mais en nul ans compris ne leusse
Et ainsi comme ie me tournay
Vers destre ma veue atournay
Sus le sommet dune montaigne
Si haulte quil pezt quelle actaigne
Jusques aux nues tant paz su haulte
Si croy quelle y attaint sans faulte
La vy fontaine clere et viue
Sourdant dun groz doy qui laume
Macon ni fist mur ne masure
--------------------------------
The same text in modern french
Ni herbes odorifiques ni autres fleurs délicieuses
Ni de bonnes choses médicinales,
Utiles herbes, fleurs, racines,
Ni poulieul, hysope ni menthe,
Ne croyez pas que je mente,
Dont tout le lieu ne soit semé
Qui dans un bel ordre est prêt
[image]
Ainsi, avec un grand et ardent désir,
Attentivement, j'ai regardé tout autour de moi;
Les très beaux lieux que je vois
Je regardais tout ce qui était visible
Si j'avais pu le faire simplement,
Mais j'ai compris que je ne l'aurais jamais eu
Et ainsi, comme je me tournais
Vers la droite, ma vue se dirigea
Sur le sommet d'une montagne
Si haute qu'elle pouvait atteindre
Jusqu'aux nuages, tellement elle était haute,
Oui, je crois qu'elle l'atteint sans erreur.
Là, je vis une fontaine claire et vive,
Jaillisant d'une grande source qui l'alimentait.
[font=Arial, sans-serif]Aucun maçon n'y a jamais construit de mur
[/font]
---------------------------------
The same text in modern english
Neither fragrant herbs or other delicious flowers
Nor good medicinal things,
Useful herbs, flowers, roots,
Neither poulieul, hyssop nor mint,
Don't think I'm lying,
Whose whole place is sown
Who in a good order is ready
[picture]
So, with great and ardent desire,
Carefully, I looked around;
The very beautiful places I see
I looked at everything that was visible
If I could have done it simply,
But I realized I never would have
And so, as I turned
To the right, my sight went
On the top of a mountain
So high she could reach
Up to the clouds, it was so high,
Yes, I believe it reaches it without error.
There I saw a clear and lively fountain,
Gushing from a great source that fed it.
No mason has ever built a wall
RE: Pizan's pool party - Koen G - 22-05-2020
(22-05-2020, 01:18 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nor good medicinal things,
...
Don't think I'm lying,
...
So, with great and ardent desire,
Carefully, I looked around;
The very beautiful places I see
I looked at everything that was visible
If I could have done it simply,
But I realized I never would have
And so, as I turned
To the right, my sight went
On the top of a mountain
So high she could reach
Up to the clouds, it was so high,
Yes, I believe it reaches it without error.
There I saw a clear and lively fountain,
Gushing from a great source that fed it.
No mason has ever built a wall
This reads like one of Trump's speeches
About the image, we must keep in mind that this is a one-off depiction of the muses in a fountain. I agree that there are similarities with q13, but if there is a relation, then it is one of creative adaptation and expansion.
RE: Pizan's pool party - R. Sale - 22-05-2020
What I see as similar, for lack of a better term ATM, is the 'environment'. There are nine women skinny-dipping in a pond, not packed like sardines in a bathtub.
The only similar representation turned up currently is the illustration, from Guarinus Veronensis' Argumentum, which shows how differently the same basic elements can be represented. It's a bit later and it's Italian. The muses are clothed and lucky to wash their hands in the fountain. Pegasus has been rolling in the dirt again.
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By seeing the potential differences, it helps to see the similarities.