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+--- Thread: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels (/thread-3140.html)
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 05:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, do you understand what the chart represents?
I think it is straightforward.
When you say "Old Russian" do you mean "Old Church Slavonic"?
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - Aga Tentakulus - 04-04-2020
Otherwise I have it here with me for download
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RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 05:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-04-2020, 05:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, do you understand what the chart represents?
I think it is straightforward.
When you say "Old Russian" do you mean "Old Church Slavonic"?
Glagolitic scripts have some commonalities with Cyrillic scripts, but they are not identical. There are also some unique characters, and they also take some of their shapes from Greek. For example, for the letter "f" they use Greek phi.
I don't know the correct terms for the different eras for Russian script (every century or so, languages evolve and they give them different names, like modern German and Middle High German), but I am referring to the Cyrillic scripts, not the Glagolitic scripts. I don't think I've seen that character in any Glagolitic texts but I have seen it in Cyrillic texts written in whatever they call the medieval version of the Russian language.
If you are looking for the VMS rare character, it's easier to find in Coptic scripts.
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 04-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 05:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-04-2020, 05:18 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-04-2020, 05:16 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mark, do you understand what the chart represents?
I think it is straightforward.
When you say "Old Russian" do you mean "Old Church Slavonic"?
Glagolitic scripts have some commonalities with Cyrillic scripts, but they are not identical.
Yes, I know that. The Glagolitic script preceded the Cyrillic script for writing the Old Russian or
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]Old East Slavic.[/font]
Quote:
If you are looking for the VMS rare character, it's easier to find in Coptic scripts.
Or even easier to find in cipher keys.
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - ReneZ - 04-04-2020
The NSA Link to Mary D'Imperio's "Elegant Enigma" has moved a couple of times in recent years, but the one on my 'References and Bibliography page' seems to be actual:
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(over 30 MByte)
(04-04-2020, 01:06 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand why the frequency of a glyph should be relevant. Surely the question should be what can we say confidently the glyph looks like. I selected some characters illustrating the breadth of Voynich characters. If a character is used less frequently in a cipher it doesn't make its appearance less relevant.
Well, I have no answer to that :-)
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - -JKP- - 04-04-2020
Quote: When you say "Old Russian" do you mean "Old Church Slavonic"?
I'm going by memory, but I believe Old Church Slavonic was 9th and 10th centuries? Old Russian was medieval... about 11th to 14th centuries.
So when I said Old Russian, I didn't mean Old Church Slavonic, I meant Old Russian. I think some linguists prefer the term Rusian, but I see Old Russian so frequently, that's the one I used.
Maybe it shows up in Old Church Slavonic manuscripts, but I haven't looked at those. I have looked at Old Russian manuscripts.
By the way, I know very little about Old Russian. I can only read a tiny bit of Russian (I've only had one very short course in Russian). I just know that the VMS rare char shows up with moderate frequency in Coptic scripts and occasional frequency in Old Russian scripts and in Latin scientific manuscripts.
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 05-04-2020
(04-04-2020, 03:43 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's not enough to look at the pictures. You have to actually read the explanations to get anything out of these blogs.
For me the question is can you find examples in other manuscripts of the symbols. So it should be enough to look at the pictures, not your explanations justifying why you can't find any pictures and yet you claim a relationship.
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - -JKP- - 05-04-2020
Looking at the pictures is not enough, Mark.
If you only look at the pictures, then you don't know if you are looking at a letter, a ligature, or an abbreviation. You have to understand the distinctions between these in order to know if a shape is similar to one in the VMS and that means reading the explanation that goes with the diagram.
Also, if you don't know how to read the text, then you don't know whether the shape you found in a manuscripts is a related shape or if the similarity is a coincidence.
RE: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 05-04-2020
(05-04-2020, 07:08 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looking at the pictures is not enough, Mark.
If you only look at the pictures, then you don't know if you are looking at a letter, a ligature, or an abbreviation. You have to understand the distinctions between these in order to know if a shape is similar to one in the VMS and that means reading the explanation that goes with the diagram.
Also, if you don't know how to read the text, then you don't know whether the shape you found in a manuscripts is a related shape or if the similarity is a coincidence.
I disagree. I think it is all about how the glyphs look. I don't think it matters if one is looking at a letter, a ligature, or an abbreviation. I think this question is all about visual appearance and I think it has to be about that. If you can find characters that look the same as those in the Voynich then great otherwise its largely hot air.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Stephen Carlson - 06-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 08:50 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Among the historical systems, Fontana and steganography appear to be closer to the VMS (though with considerable differences).Thanks for the wonderful chart. That Fontana MS is really impressive as a comparandum. I wonder if something like that was a model for how the VM should look, even though the process used to produce it must be different.
Both Timm and Schinner's and Rene's systems are good matches for some of the features of the VMS: T&S match more features, but mod2 has the advantage of being a cipher system that can encode any meaningful text.