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+--- Thread: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels (/thread-3140.html)
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - ReneZ - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 12:44 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.she did not see an association with Latin Abbreviations such as in Capelli
Perhaps one hears what one wants to hear.
What I think I heard is that:
- there is a similarity in shape and the Voynich characters may have been inspired by them
- she rather believes that they do not have the same semantic meaning
That is what JKP has been saying (repeatedly) and my opinion is the same.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
You could amend your Row "Glyphs with positional preference" to "Glyphs compatible with positional preference".
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Koen G - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 01:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I think I heard is that:
- there is a similarity in shape and the Voynich characters may have been inspired by them
- she rather believes that they do not have the same semantic meaning
That is what JKP has been saying (repeatedly) and my opinion is the same.
Yeah that's what I understood as well, more of a warning that we should not take these symbols as meaning the same thing as they do in Latin MSS (which we don't).
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 01:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2020, 12:44 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.she did not see an association with Latin Abbreviations such as in Capelli
Perhaps one hears what one wants to hear.
What I think I heard is that:
- there is a similarity in shape and the Voynich characters may have been inspired by them
- she rather believes that they do not have the same semantic meaning
That is what JKP has been saying (repeatedly) and my opinion is the same.
First of all JKP does not say "the Voynich characters MAY have been inspired by them", he says, "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]the Voynich characters WERE inspired by them" as he classifies them that way.(In fact he really is saying that they ARE them.)[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]JKP says "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]They are called medieval Latin characters/ligatures/abbreviations."[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]This is a big distinction.[/font][/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I said "It[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] is misleading to characterise these symbols that way."[/font][/font][/font]
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
To say diplomatic ciphers don't obey Zipf's law whilst Fontana's does can be slightly misleading as Fontana cipher is a subtype of diplomatic cipher in essence.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 01:02 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2020, 12:44 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.she did not see an association with Latin Abbreviations such as in Capelli
Perhaps one hears what one wants to hear.
What I think I heard is that:
- there is a similarity in shape and the Voynich characters may have been inspired by them
- she rather believes that they do not have the same semantic meaning
That is what JKP has been saying (repeatedly) and my opinion is the same.
She says that there is similarity with some of the characters and those of the latin alphabet and Arabic numerals, which I of course accept. She says there is a similarity with some of the characters and those in Capelli. What she clearly does not say is that they are all medieval Latin characters/ligatures/abbreviations, which if she thought they were then I am sure she would have said. JKP has (repeatedly) said that they are one and the same.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
I certainly would not suggest that diplomatic communication would take up a whole book, unless one is referring to a cipher ledger. I would not suggest that diplomatic communication would include illustrations, though I suppose it is possible. I am suggesting a shift of cipher technique from one context to another.
Can you be more specific about what exactly you mean by the term "line effects"?
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - MarcoP - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 09:40 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Marco
As I understand it, you come from near Bergamo.
The text does not come so far from your region. ( three languages , german, italian, romanic italian )
Question: Can you understand it ?
Al â le corp de bisca...
Hi Peter,
I am from Milan and I understand about 80% of the Ladin tale. Its relationship with pharma labels, Mark's theories, cipher systems or even Bergamo totally escapes me.
(03-04-2020, 12:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You might want to add to your list ... the relevant point should be ... you might want to have a row ... You could amend your Row...
As I said, I understand that the list is subjective. I was trying to answer your question about my very personal point of view. Feel free to modify the list in any way that you see fit.
I will try to further clarify my opinion by answering a few of your questions:
(03-04-2020, 12:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is significantly more in common in character sets with the Voynich than the other historical examples that you listed. This is not just the "4o", but there are a number of other glyphs.
I don't know which character sets you are talking about. The diplomatic cipher published by Domnina contains about 80 different symbols, but "4o" is not one of them. I know that there are hundreds of diplomatic ciphers produced through several decades, each with many characters, so the total number of symbols is huge, but I think that Domnina's short text is the only example of an enciphered diplomatic text I have seen: I must refer to it when discussing the result of diplomatic encryption.
(03-04-2020, 12:57 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It would also be useful knowing how specifically you define "Reduplication" and "Quasi-reduplication".
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(03-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can you be more specific about what exactly you mean by the term "line effects"?
See what Currier wrote in the paragraph The Line Is a Functional Entity (pg.5)
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(03-04-2020, 12:57 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand what you mean by "words exhibit structure" in the context of Fontana's enciphered work.
Obviously, in this case the structure one sees in the cipher-text is the same structure that one can see in a plain Latin text. It is not too difficult to spot a few patterns. For instance, in Secretum 100v, one can see that the two symbols 'o' and '8' tend to appear consecutively as either o8 or 8o, with -o8 often being word-final. Also, only a few symbols can be repeated consecutively and 88 is one such sequence (see attached image).
This word exemplifies both o8 and 88.
One could almost say that the word 'pisscis' looks like qoddaod, but honestly I don't think this is terribly significant. Anyway, I'd be curious to know if similar words can be seen in diplomatic documents?
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 03:01 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, I'd be curious to know if similar words can be seen in diplomatic documents?I have sent you a message.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 03:01 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know which character sets you are talking about. The diplomatic cipher published by Domnina contains about 80 different symbols, but "4o" is not one of them. I know that there are hundreds of diplomatic ciphers produced through several decades, each with many characters, so the total number of symbols is huge, but I think that Domnina's short text is the only example of an enciphered diplomatic text I have seen: I must refer to it when discussing the result of diplomatic encryption.
I have attached an image showing shared cipher symbols that I have seen.