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+--- Thread: Mark Knowles' theories of pharma and other labels (/thread-3140.html)
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - ReneZ - 02-04-2020
It all depends how wide one's definition of cipher is.
The Voynich MS is not of the type of cipher that was in use in the early 15th century.
When Friedman came to the opinion that the Voynich MS is something else than a cipher, he must have had some definition of cipher in mind.
*If* the text is meaningful, then it has clearly been obfuscated in some way. Whether that way could be called a cipher remains to be seen.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 02-04-2020
(02-04-2020, 05:12 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It all depends how wide one's definition of cipher is.
It is true that definitions can be wide and so what one means by cipher in this context I suppose can be subject to debate. Of course, Wikipedia, for what it is worth, has a certain amount to say on the subject. I am prepared to work with whatever definition is commonly accepted here.
Quote:
The Voynich MS is not of the type of cipher that was in use in the early 15th century.
Again we come to the question of what precisely we mean by "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]the type of cipher". I have said many times that I don't think it is the same as ciphers used in the early 15th century, but I am inclined to the view that it probably has a lot in common with them, whilst still producing a noticeably very different output. So whether the kind of thing I envisage would count as [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]"[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]the type of cipher" I don't know. I think for me important concepts found in early 15th century ciphers like nulls and homophones are relevant. I suggested in the pharma thread that there is a middle ground between all text being meaningless or none of it being so, this was not a possibility mentioned amongst many the possibilities considered. The implication being that some labels are meaningless and others not. A consequence of homophones is that the exact same word with the exact same spelling can actually be written in more than 1 completely different way and this kind of phenomena could explain the difficulty in find certain labels in the accompanying text. This was not a possibility considered amongst a number mentioned in this thread. I have discussed how by using glyph strings/sequences homophones can apply without a large glyph set. There are, I imagine, other different ways in which the broad principles of homophones could be applied.[/font][/font][/font]
Quote:
When Friedman came to the opinion that the Voynich MS is something else than a cipher, he must have had some definition of cipher in mind.
When it comes to Friedman, he was clearly a highly eminent and able cryptographer. However the most able and eminent people, in history, are capable of being wrong. Even Einstein, who is generally the poster boy for intellectual achievement, got some things wrong. I just say this as I feel one should be prepared to have a different opinion to even the most brilliant of thinkers; I don't think that is arrogance, but rather being open to forming one's own intellectual journey. Otherwise we all might as well go home, metaphorically, if we say well person X was much more intelligent than I am, so what hope do I have of making any progress with the Voynich.(I accept that most of us are now at home, for other reasons)
Quote:
*If* the text is meaningful, then it has clearly been obfuscated in some way. Whether that way could be called a cipher remains to be seen.
I think we can agree on that.
A side point, which has been mentioned before by someone else, though not in the same way as I have thought of, is the possibility that the Voynich may contain a message that has nothing to do with the drawings and so the illustrations are just a cover for the true contents. I really like this idea, although there are a variety of reasons that I really doubt this is the case. However, even though I don't think it is situation I think it worth considering, so I am open to it as conceivable, though unlikely.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - MarcoP - 03-04-2020
Quote:You seem to believe that Voynichese cannot be related to diplomatic ciphers of the period as you seem to be saying that the Voynichese cannot have features connected to or related to that of homophones. Is this a correct assessment of your position?
Everything is possible, but some possibilities explain more of the evidence than others. Here is a comparison between a few observable systems:
- The VMS
- Fontana's cipher manuscripts (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
- The XV Century diplomatic cipher You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you mentioned a while ago
- Trithemius' steganography system "padiel aporsy" (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (XVIII Century)
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
These are features I find significant, others might make different choices.
Among the historical systems, Fontana and steganography appear to be closer to the VMS (though with considerable differences).
Both Timm and Schinner's and Rene's systems are good matches for some of the features of the VMS: T&S match more features, but mod2 has the advantage of being a cipher system that can encode any meaningful text.
The homophonic cipher in the Copiale ms and the Diplomatic cipher produce something that is completely different from Voynichese: these systems do not fit with the observations.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Aga Tentakulus - 03-04-2020
@Marco
As I understand it, you come from near Bergamo.
The text does not come so far from your region. ( three languages , german, italian, romanic italian )
Question: Can you understand it ?
Al â le corp de bisca, iames lunges armades da grifes y n pêr d’ares amples y stersces. La
boćia ê tan grana y leria che na porsona ess alblü lerch laìte. I dënz ê lunć y spizà. Sc’al ti
rovâ daimprò n famëi, s’ l’ mangiâl cun osc y pel. I famëis ne s’infidâ nia plü cun i tiers sö por
munt, ćiodiche le dragun â somenè desgrazia y mort. La jënt arbandonâ les campagnes y s’un jô
tla valada a patì meseria y fan. Mo chësc mostro de n tier rovâ inće jö te paîsc y jô tles
stales a se mangé bisces y d’ater bestiam.
Tl medemo tëmp viôl te Mareo, tl ćiastel da Brach, le „Gran Bracun“, ch’â n gran coraje y â
bele desmostrè süa bravöra tl adorè les ermes. Al â tan n bun edl y na man talmënter sigüda y
frëma ch’al odô y atocâ, ston sön vider de ćiastel, n rehl che rodâ tl bosch de Plaies.
Le Gran Bracun orô delibré la valada dal dragun. Porchël ti àl vistì al ćiaval la sela de san Iöre
y é raité te chël bosch olache tröc â bele ciafè la mort. Tosc él rové daimprò dala sfëssa,
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
The Doge of Venice sent Giovanni Fontana to Brescia to deliver a message to the condottiere Francesco Carmagnola. I wondered before whether this was written in cipher as was common with this kind of diplomatic communication. I looked into where Fontana had become familiar with ciphers. If he was sent on a diplomatic mission like this then that might explain where he learnt about ciphers.
More to come...
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
You might want to add to your list the extent of visual commonality of character sets.
There is significantly more in common in character sets with the Voynich than the other historical examples that you listed. This is not just the "4o", but there are a number of other glyphs.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
I think your Row "Historically Documented" could be misleading as the relevant point should be "Historically Documented from before 1450*" i.e. *early 15th century or before.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - -JKP- - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 12:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2020, 08:50 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You might want to add to your list the extent of visual commonality of character sets.
There is significantly more in common in character sets with the Voynich than the other historical examples that you listed. This is not just the "4o", but there are a number of other glyphs.
They are called medieval Latin characters/ligatures/abbreviations.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
(03-04-2020, 12:43 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2020, 12:23 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(03-04-2020, 08:50 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You might want to add to your list the extent of visual commonality of character sets.
There is significantly more in common in character sets with the Voynich than the other historical examples that you listed. This is not just the "4o", but there are a number of other glyphs.
They are called medieval Latin characters/ligatures/abbreviations.
That is not correct. I noted in Koen's conversation with Lisa Fagin Davis, that she did not see an association with Latin Abbreviations such as in Capelli. She may be right or she may be wrong, but it is misleading to characterise these symbols that way.
RE: Mark Knowles theories' of pharma and other labels - Mark Knowles - 03-04-2020
Fontana's simple substitution cipher uses 28 symbols not about 20. I don't understand what you mean by "words exhibit structure" in the context of Fontana's enciphered work.
It would also be useful knowing how specifically you define "Reduplication" and "Quasi-reduplication".
I think you might want to have a row "Cipher sophistication" indicating how advanced/complex that cipher is.