+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Imagery (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-43.html)
+--- Thread: Garden of Virtues (/thread-3130.html)
RE: Garden of Virtues - Koen G - 22-03-2020
In the "garden of virtues" scene specifically, the trees represent the virtues though. If I understand correctly, the ladies represent "the virtuous woman". That's why they all look the same, without attributes.
So yeah, it is very specific scene, though not unexpected. In a way it reveals a normal side of Q13. The massive potential of water in allegory. The fact that medieval audiences were quite accustomed to rows of women representing abstract concepts.
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
Yes, sorry, I misspoke and didn't distinguish between the trees and the women in the way I said it (I was still thinking about the more usual ways of depicting it).
If this is a drawing of the virtues in the VMS, in the same general vein as the women and trees, then it increases the likelihood that the illustrator didn't want to be too overt about it—that the drawings are, in fact, encoded. There is the idea of trees, but no actual trees, and the idea of water being dispensed in association with the nymphs, but integrated with the "tree" shapes, not entirely separate from them.
I was wondering why I hadn't seen this manuscript before. I've been through every manuscript on the e-codices site at least twice... but then I noticed that it was recently digitized. I've been so busy catching up on the Polonsky project that I had completely missed it.
I think it's an excellent find.
RE: Garden of Virtues - bi3mw - 22-03-2020
What I rather miss on folio 84r is the individualization of the nymphs in their possible representation as virtues. This is usually done through the clothing and symbols that the nymphs do not wear. In a certain way they look "uniform" through their nakedness and do not look as if they represent individual qualities.
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
I think the point Koen was making is that it's not the nymphs that represent the virtues in the example he posted. It's the trees.
And there are 7 tree-like arch-shapes on 84r.
Using a tree theme to represent virtues is very old. Sometimes the virtues were written on the leaves, sometimes next to different branches. They were usually not individualized when they were drawn this way. They were simply labeled (I suppose a label individualizes them but they were not drawn differently).
Koen's example is especially interesting because it takes the tree theme, and the ladies, and puts them together in a different way. It's almost Pagan, actually, in the way the ladies are tending the trees.
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
Here's another example using the same thematic presentation:
![[Image: B9f192v.jpg]](https://www.joh.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/images/manuscript_images/B9f192v.jpg)
Lives of Saints Cambridge St. John's MS B.9, France, c. 1330s
Notice the narrow grain-like way the trees are drawn, similar to the VMS "tree" above the bird's nest on the high tor.
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
Koen, I only had a chance to glance at the article, and I haven't cross-checked it with more recent ones, but Ellen Kosmer in 1979 stated that this maiden and tree imagery is iconographically a relatively new way to represent vices and virtues (as of 1279). Somme le Roi was written by Dominican brother Lorens for Philippe III of France.
RE: Garden of Virtues - Koen G - 22-03-2020
It's like JKP says, bi3, the allegorical women (or rather woman) in the Garden of Virtues are different than the Virtues with their attributes. They serve well for contrast. The top image looks like the same woman in seven different dresses. The bottom looks like a Carnival parade.
I daresay one is more like the VM pool pages (Q13b) than the other. Now I'm not saying the VM depicts the Garden of Virtues; it clearly does not, but it appears to echo it in its own way.
(Side note, I just noticed one of the Virtues in JKP's image is holding Bernardino's Christogram. This alone is enough to know the MS was made after 1417).
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
Kosmer writes that the garden, in this instance, is a metaphor for the soul of man. The garden has seven levels, each with a virtue fountain. Bathing in them (the virtues) removes the seven deadly sins.
In the Greek garden, each virtue is a different species of tree (so there are different versions of how this is presented).
RE: Garden of Virtues - bi3mw - 22-03-2020
(22-03-2020, 11:59 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Kosmer writes that the garden, ....You refer to the article by Ellen Kosmer ?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Garden of Virtues - -JKP- - 22-03-2020
I'm including this mainly for the record, as it is c. 1507, and it's not thematically the same, but it includes personifications of virtues within a garden wall on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and on f20v:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Source: BL Arundel MS 317
(22-03-2020, 12:16 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(22-03-2020, 11:59 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Kosmer writes that the garden, ....You refer to the article by Ellen Kosmer ?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Yes, that's correct, Ellen Kosmer 1979, as mentioned in Post #16. If I weren't so busy right now I would look to see if other researchers had added to this subject more recently, but my research time is limited at the moment.