+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Provenance & history (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-44.html)
+--- Thread: I found something... (/thread-3111.html)
RE: I found something... - -JKP- - 30-04-2021
(30-04-2021, 01:12 AM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-04-2021, 09:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You want me to give you the punchline before I have posted my research?
It took took me years to figure it out. I would like the opportunity to explain how I got there.
Well...then why post this before you're ready? People are naturally going to ask after all this deliberate build-up of suspense...
Tavie, there's no such thing as "ready". That might work for paintings and musical compositions, but research into an unknown object is ongoing. We might never know who created it. We might never know what the text represents (although I hope it is at least possible to describe it and reproduce it somewhat faithfully). We might never know if some of the research I'm happy about is 100% right, but it might be 90% right and that might help other researchers.
Also, I have other feelings about this. I've given up sleep the whole time I've worked on the VMS. I've probably lost a few years off the end of my life because of it. I've given up all my other hobbies and a lot of family time. Someone comes in and says, "Give me," without offering a single thing in return? That is not courteous.
I am giving. Look how many posts and charts and examples and illustrations I've posted. Look at all the blogs I've posted. I don't have to share ANY of this. I could be sending it to journals and getting academic credit, or to magazines and getting paid. Instead I'm sharing it with ninjas. Some of them give back a great deal. I try to acknowledge that and repay in kind, but I have no obligation to share, I do it out of a sense of community and to be fair to those who are also sharing.
RE: I found something... - RenegadeHealer - 30-04-2021
JKP, I’ve noticed since my earliest days as a lurker that the Voynich scene is politically interesting, and a bit of an acquired taste. It’s a great demonstration of the Prisoner’s Dilemma: Many incentives for researchers to be open about their work, and at least equally as many incentives for researchers to be cagey. This is a treasure hunt, after all, and if and when the VMs is solved, one person will likely get most of the credit. Alliances, offhand info leaks, and debts of gratitude have the potential to make claiming credit for the solution mighty complicated. Then there’s the fact that the barrier to entry is so low, while the barrier to real progress so high, which makes anyone who’s made any real progress on the VMs quite wary of freeloaders.
No one is obligated to share anything here, and I think anyone who takes more of a spectator or cheerleader role in this treasure hunt would be wise to keep this in mind.
RE: I found something... - Koen G - 30-04-2021
(30-04-2021, 07:41 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then there’s the fact that the barrier to entry is so low, while the barrier to real progress so high, which makes anyone who’s made any real progress on the VMs quite wary of freeloaders
This is a real problem, at least hypothetically. If some partial solution or bit of insight becomes commonly accepted, then all kinds of weirdos will do all kinds of weird things with it.
Still, I firmly believe cooperation with respect for people's individual contributions is the way forward. I also believe that this forum, and connections like Lisa Fagin Davis, Ray Clemens and so on, provide a strong network of serious researchers who could step in when serious theft of groundbreaking work should occur.
RE: I found something... - Linda - 01-05-2021
(29-04-2021, 09:02 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like the opportunity to explain how I got there.
Don't you?
RE: I found something... - Linda - 01-05-2021
(30-04-2021, 07:41 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.there’s the fact that the barrier to entry is so low, while the barrier to real progress so high, which makes anyone who’s made any real progress on the VMs quite wary of freeloaders.
No one is obligated to share anything here, and I think anyone who takes more of a spectator or cheerleader role in this treasure hunt would be wise to keep this in mind.
Wouldn't such be exposed by the existence of dated posts, etc? It seems like it would be easy to point out precedents on any particular topic
Can you rephrase your last sentence? I read that several different ways.
When answers are found, i hope people will say, and not take their progress to their graves because they were waiting for that perfect moment to write it all up in the perfect way ... or were fearful that someone else would write it up subsequently and take credit for it.
RE: I found something... - bi3mw - 01-05-2021
(30-04-2021, 09:54 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Still, I firmly believe cooperation with respect for people's individual contributions is the way forward.I believe that cooperation is the only way to solve the VMS one day. The decisive factor in this cooperation is the ability to unreservedly adopt the perspective of a (new) solution approach. Some voynicheros already have a preconceived opinion when it comes to taking a direction in solving the VMS. New approaches are then only compared with their own hypotheses. The only thing that is really helpful here is the will to venture into previously "unknown territory". Even the risk of running into dead ends once again should not be a deterrent.
To be honest, I sometimes catch myself making snap judgments about new solutions.
RE: I found something... - tavie - 01-05-2021
(30-04-2021, 06:13 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Someone comes in and says, "Give me," without offering a single thing in return? That is not courteous.
That's not really a fair characterization of anyone in this thread.
RE: I found something... - Koen G - 01-05-2021
(01-05-2021, 12:29 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To be honest, I sometimes catch myself making snap judgments about new solutions.
This is true, especially involving the text. But when a shipload of red flags comes your way, this is simply a matter of self-protection
RE: I found something... - DONJCH - 01-05-2021
(30-04-2021, 07:41 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No one is obligated to share anything here, and I think anyone who takes more of a spectator or cheerleader role in this treasure hunt would be wise to keep this in mind.
Disagree. You publish or you perish. It's no good dying with terrabytes of data on your hard drive because your contribution will be absolutely zero and some poor sod will have to start all over again from scratch.
However, to add to the knowledge base even a little is a start.
RE: I found something... - RenegadeHealer - 01-05-2021
@Linda what I'm saying is, while it's fine to engage, encourage, and cheer on the efforts of VMs researchers whose work I'm a big fan of, I don't think I'd have it in me to heckle anybody for work in progress that they weren't comfortable releasing yet, and I wouldn't encourage other quasi-lurkers like me to do this either. Not my style. I'm not convinced this makes for better work or an more fun hobby scene. I compare it to spectators giving players or referees a hard time in an amateur sports game, or booing someone off the stage at an open mike night.
@DONJCH that strikes me as a false dichotomy. I agree with you that if you snooze you lose, and that includes holding out for the "perfect time" to release info & intel until someone else beats you to it. If you hold that perfect hand and then someone else wins the game, that's not a good strategy. But nor is playing your best cards too soon. Timing and presentation are pretty important, if you want your ideas to have the right impact. It's a balancing act.
My point is, it's entirely any researcher's prerogative when, to whom, and in what format (s)he releases original work. By the same token, of course, endless talk of pending new findings only gets cheaper over time.