+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Provenance & history (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-44.html)
+--- Thread: I found something... (/thread-3111.html)
RE: I found something... - ReneZ - 29-04-2021
An aspect that must be taken into account is, that it is not on paper but on parchment.
This requires an explanation.
For most of post-VMS history, and for most motivations, paper would have been the obvious choice.
RE: I found something... - Helmut Winkler - 29-04-2021
(29-04-2021, 05:40 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An aspect that must be taken into account is, that it is not on paper but on parchment.
This requires an explanation.
For most of post-VMS history, and for most motivations, paper would have been the obvious choice.
Not if it is Italian, paper would have been more likely in Germany, parchment in I.. As a matter of fact it is one of the reasons why I (and I suppose some others) think it is Italian.
RE: I found something... - ReneZ - 29-04-2021
(29-04-2021, 08:36 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not if it is Italian, paper would have been more likely in Germany, parchment in I.. As a matter of fact it is one of the reasons why I (and I suppose some others) think it is Italian.
Just to be sure, this is about the single sheet found by Fabrizio Salani.
The proposed explanation that this would be a copy made by Barschius in Prague in the 1630's is very problematic, considering the fact that it is on parchment.
This issue also applies to many other potential explanations of this page.
A "modern" practical joke is not excluded by this.
(Please note that I specifically do not wish to suggest that Fabrizio would be involved in anything like this. I am sure that he is completely honest about this find).
RE: I found something... - Helmut Winkler - 29-04-2021
(29-04-2021, 09:14 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote='Helmut Winkler' pid='45029' dateline='1619681780']
Not if it is Italian, paper would have been more likely in Germany, parchment in I.. As a matter of fact it is one of the reasons why I (and I suppose some others) think it is Italian.
Just to be sure, this is about the single sheet found by Fabrizio Salani.
Sorry, misunderstanding, mistake on my side: I was talking about the whole ms.
RE: I found something... - -JKP- - 29-04-2021
(29-04-2021, 09:14 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Just to be sure, this is about the single sheet found by Fabrizio Salani.
The proposed explanation that this would be a copy made by Barschius in Prague in the 1630's is very problematic, considering the fact that it is on parchment.
This issue also applies to many other potential explanations of this page.
A "modern" practical joke is not excluded by this.
(Please note that I specifically do not wish to suggest that Fabrizio would be involved in anything like this. I am sure that he is completely honest about this find).
If it's a modern copy, whoever did it, did so in a very unusual way and knew a great deal about late medieval/early renaissance engravings/illustrations. The information I found points to a specific illustrator.
RE: I found something... - Anton - 29-04-2021
But this illustrator post-dates the VMS or pre-dates it?
RE: I found something... - Koen G - 29-04-2021
I still wonder what anyone's motivation would be to make a decent copy but then completely change the roots and add one leaf. If a Baresch-type wanted to make a copy to show a friend, then why not be faithful all around? And if a modern person wished to make a "new" Voynich page, then why not be more creative, knowing that anyone with access to the MS or any of its reproduction could easily call it out for a copy? I cannot see any rationale behind the observed degree of change.
RE: I found something... - -JKP- - 29-04-2021
Koen, I don't know the reason for it either, but the text is MOSTLY faithful to the original (not completely, so I'll document the differences, but they are small), so perhaps the accuracy of the image wasn't the important part.
Another thought I had was that if it was not connected with the Jesuits (the ones we know about), if it was connected someone pre-provenance, then they may have had other motives. The printing industry was a goldrush in those days. People who saw Gutenberg's press literally RAN to other countries to set up their own presses as fast as they could so they could be first and they were grabbing manuscripts left and right to turn into printed books. Maybe someone thought the VMS had potential but gave up on it because of its... properties (that we all know about).
This is all speculation, but it's interesting to think about it.
RE: I found something... - Anton - 29-04-2021
And the text does not correspond... the differences are not small, really
RE: I found something... - -JKP- - 29-04-2021
Okay, here is a preview of some of the work I've been doing on faces (as compared to VMS faces). This doesn't adequately show it because I only grabbed a few examples. I also sampled profiles, women (they draw them differently from men), full figures, proportions, and prone bodies for each one. I collected the names of the illuminators whenever they were available (or where the illuminator had a historical designation like Master of the ___ Manuscript). I also sampled all the palettes (less useful, since it depends on scan accuracy, but still interesting).
I sampled from the 9th century up to about the 19th century. It's pretty extensive. I tried to get imagery from all countries (only a few are shown in this screensnap).
![[Image: FacesQuickGrabApr2021.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/FacesQuickGrabApr2021.png)
I did something similar with plants, but it's harder to illustrate with a quick grab. After a while, you learn a person's style, just like you can learn a person's handwriting, and it becomes easier to find a specific style in compendia that were illustrated by more than one person. That's how I found the Salani illustrator. It took about four years to find, document, chart, and double-check to make sure I wasn't imagining things.