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+--- Thread: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? (/thread-3106.html)
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - MarcoP - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What makes the matter more complex, is that the situation for each section is different, but there is a general trend of decline as a section progresses. In the Zodiac folios, disappearance of color (among which a ton of red) goes hand in hand with simplification of the figures.
I too have the impression of a "decline" or maybe "simplification". As you say, this is particularly clear in the zodiac, where the figures in Pisces are so highly elaborated with their costumes and patterned tubs.
A possible line of investigation about Herbal A and B could then be trying to quantify the degree of complexity of the images, e.g. by estimating the number of strokes in each painting. But it seems clear that this requires a considerable effort (of either manual counting or image processing) and it is doubtful that it could lead anywhere.
The colour annotations could be another element that was dropped in the process: since they appear on f1v, it seems they were there from the very start (assuming that 1r is the true first page as the red "initials" suggest).
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Anton - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 11:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.this page again suggests that red was a separate, final pass.
"Final pass" is a good idea.
I believe paint was rather expensive back then, what about comparative price of different colours? Was red more expensive than, say, blue?
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Koen G - 26-04-2021
Before writing the post, I checked the McCrone report again and the red is a red ochre. This is supposedly an extremely common mineral pigment. To give you an idea, this is what the cavemen painted all over their walls. From what I gather, it was known all around the world.
Still, it looks like for some reason the VM did not always have it available, or maybe their ochre turned out more brown than red sometimes, prompting them to use if only minimally.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - geoffreycaveney - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 07:32 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(26-04-2021, 11:58 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.this page again suggests that red was a separate, final pass.
"Final pass" is a good idea.
I believe paint was rather expensive back then, what about comparative price of different colours? Was red more expensive than, say, blue?
I know very little about art history, but from what little I know, I agree with Koen, that red was always traditionally a more widely and readily available pigment colour, and also that blue was generally considered much rarer and more difficult and expensive to obtain. But again, this is just a general statement about paint colours throughout millennia of history, not any particular knowledge of the availability and expense of specific colours of paint in early 15th century Europe in particular.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Anton - 26-04-2021
In such case, maybe there are regions where red ochre is in deficit? Mountain, island, forest, or maybe certain specific part of the world? Is that possible?
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Linda - 26-04-2021
The simplification in the zodiac is, i think, purposeful, it is not only the paint but the drawings themselves, and i think it has meaning other than indicating the makers were getting tired of drawing in the details. It can be seen as indicative of the increase in cultural and architectural complexity of mankind over time.
It only looks like decline because unlike a regular year, where the months progress forward, with the bulk of Pisces in March, Aries in April, Taurus in May, etc., the depiction of a great year goes backward in time. It is now, or soon, the dawning of the age of Aquarius, it is, and was at the time of the vms, the age of Pisces, so the age of Aries is the one before that in the BC era, and the age of Taurus another two millenia plus before that.
So the lack of red in the later part of the zodiac may just be a lack of anywhere to add red, rather than some correspondence to the lack of red in Herbal B.
Or maybe it has further meaning we haven't yet deduced. Maybe the drawings without the lines delineating the roots from the stems means the roots can also be above ground, and/or underwater, and/or in brackish water, like mangrove species, for instance. I have not looked into which plants are which yet so that is just a top of the head example of a meaningful difference possibly portrayed that goes beyond individual artistic styles.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Linda - 26-04-2021
(26-04-2021, 08:02 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In such case, maybe there are regions where red ochre is in deficit? Mountain, island, forest, or maybe certain specific part of the world? Is that possible?
According to wiki, the yellow ochre could be roasted to partially turn it to red. Presence of other minerals could also change the colour. Wiki:
During the Renaissance, yellow and red ochre pigments were widely used in painting panels and frescoes. The colours vary greatly from region to region, depending upon whether the local clay was richer in yellowish limonite or reddish hematite. The red earth from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. near Naples was a salmon pink, while the pigment from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. contained manganese, making it a darker reddish brown called terra di siena, or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. earth.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The 15th-century painter You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. described the uses of ochre pigments in his famous treatise on painting.
This pigment is found in the earth of mountains, where particular seams like sulphur are found. And there, where these seams are, sinopia, green earth and other types of pigment are found...And the abovementioned pigments running through this landscape looked as a scar on the face of a man or of a woman looks...I went in behind with my little knife, prospecting at the scar of this pigment; and in this way, I promise you, I never sampled a more lovely and perfect ochre pigment...And know that this ochre is a common pigment, particularly when working in fresco; that with other mixtures that, as i will explain to you, it is used for flesh colours, for drapery, for coloured mountains and buildings and hair and in general for many things.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - DONJCH - 27-04-2021
Ochre is a common substance but I speak as an Australian where the whole continent is packed with it.
Germany otoh I seem to recall has only one iron ore deposit, at Salzgitter, and that is low grade silicate ore, not oxide.
So maybe Germany is deficient in ochre?
The reasoning being that good quality red ochre contains haematite and would be found in association to high grade haematite iron ore deposits.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - Koen G - 27-04-2021
It's possible that it was a quality issue. Even the reddest red in the VM is still brownish. And the only occurrences of red in Herbal B use a thick half brown paste.
If they ran out of means to produce a satisfactory red, this might mean that Herbal B was painted after the small plants and the Zodiac.
RE: Do Herbal A and Herbal B correspond to differences in imagery? - DONJCH - 27-04-2021
It seems plausible but I am basing quite a lot on few facts so further work needed to confirm.