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+--- Thread: [split] Dating ink? (/thread-2993.html)
[split] Dating ink? - bi3mw - 05-11-2019
For the radiocarbon dating of the VMS the following statement can be read on the net:
Quote:Experts from the McCrone Research Institute in Chicago have found that the ink was not applied much later.Is that what the McCrone report says ? I can't find the text passage. Or is there another paper in which this is stated ?
RE: General chat thread - ReneZ - 05-11-2019
This statement was reported in Viennese newspapers after the press briefing in 2012.
However, this is not in the McCrone report and it is also not what was analysed by McCrone.
RE: General chat thread - RobGea - 05-11-2019
The McCrone report web address has changed some older links don't work.
Can now be found here.
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RE: General chat thread - bi3mw - 05-11-2019
Thanks @Rene, it would be interesting to know if something like this could be investigated. Then the discussion about a modern forgery could be finally ended.
RE: [split] Dating ink? - Koen G - 05-11-2019
Thread split.
I agree it's an interesting question. As far as I'm aware, dating ink is impossible by radiocarbon dating because it does not contain the required materials.
They can only say that the composition of the ink is consistent with what was used in the 15th century. However, since Forgerman Voynich did not only possess flawless knowledge of past materials and technique, but also the foresight to predict 21st century methods of analysis, this argument can still be countered by proponents of the modern forgery theory.
RE: [split] Dating ink? - ReneZ - 05-11-2019
The ink may have very small quantities of organic material, which could be dated.
It would require permission from the library to scrape off a considerable amount of ink from the MS.
I don't see how this could be justified.
I am also not aware that this has ever been attempted, but who knows...
On the other point, I am skeptical that any discussion of any theory will ever be ended...
RE: [split] Dating ink? - Wladimir D - 05-11-2019
I had a dispute in a Russian forum on a similar problem. In my opinion, it is much easier to do an analysis of green paint on f26r, where the paint lay in a thick layer on top of the ink. If this paint did not start in the 20th century, then the theory of modern fake (Voinich) will be destroyed.
RE: [split] Dating ink? - RobGea - 05-11-2019
Fascinating subject. There's a ton of stuff on the net.
I think there are 2 questions here, the first by bi3mw, the second by Koen G.
Q1) Time interval between creation of the parchment and when the ink was written onto the parchment.
Q2) Age of the ink itself.
A1. Don't think this has been studied. Can't fnd any info on the web so far.
A2. "there is currently no scientifically reliable method of dating inks" --The Birmingham Qur'an FAQ [1]
A1-Notes: One may hypothesize that properties of the parchment change over time
and this affects how the ink is absorbed into the parchment or some such process.
--I just made that up, no idea if its possible.
A2-Notes:
"It would be great if we could directly radiocarbon date the inks, but it is actually really difficult to do.
First, they are on a surface only in trace amounts" Hodgins said.
"The carbon content is usually extremely low.
Moreover, sampling ink free of carbon from the parchment on which it sits is currently beyond our abilities.
Finally, some inks are not carbon based, but are derived from ground minerals. They're inorganic, so they don't contain any carbon."
--Greg hodgins talking about RC dating the VMS [2].
Technology is always advancing so there's always hope.
This paper from August 2019 is about using Raman spectoscopy to estimate dates of inks on egyptian papyri.
"This new and non-destructive method produces a statistically robust indication
of the antiquity and rough period (e.g., Ptolemaic, Roman, etc.) of the inks in question" [3]
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RE: [split] Dating ink? - Koen G - 05-11-2019
Your last article looks interesting. However, the ink they tested is carbon based (Egyptians used a burning process to make ink, resulting in a carbon called "lamp black"). European ink like the one used for the VM rely on oxidizing iron particles for their blackness. Therefore I suspect this method could not be applied to the VM.
RE: [split] Dating ink? - nablator - 05-11-2019
(05-11-2019, 03:58 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your last article looks interesting. However, the ink they tested is carbon based (Egyptians used a burning process to make ink, resulting in a carbon called "lamp black"). European ink like the one used for the VM rely on oxidizing iron particles for their blackness. Therefore I suspect this method could not be applied to the VM.
The iron-gall ink is made from iron and tannic acid from vegetable sources. The acid certainly has carbon in its chemical formula.
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Organic material in the green paint contains carbon as well.