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+--- Thread: Medieval sirens and mermaids (/thread-2970.html)
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 28-05-2020
More about Melusine:
Melusine is not just another pretty face. Melusine is the proposed ancestress, the presumed progenitrix of several noble houses in European history.
Early on is the house of Lusignan. Later on the area of Poitou was granted to Jean, Duc de Berry. All he had to do was evict the English forces, which he managed to do. According to the Melusine myth, she would appear above the castle when one ruler was replaced by another, and there she is, above the right hand tower in the March depiction of Lusignan castle, in Tres Riches Heuers, a book made for Jean de Berry.
The rulers of Luxembourg also claimed Melusine as an ancestress. Bonne of Luxembourg was the mother of Jean de Berry, as well as the Duke of Burgundy, Philip the Bold.
Jean de Berry commissioned a book, Roman de Melusine, by Jean d'Arras in 1393. Another version was commissioned 1440-1450 (Harley 4418) by Jean V de Crequy, a Knight of the Golden Fleece. And another c. 1490 (BNF 24383) for the Lord of Parthenay.
A display featuring Melusine was constructed and presented at the Feast of the Pheasant, sponsored by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy.
The story of Melusine played an important role in the Valois mythos. No one claimed descent from Minnie the Mermaid.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Koen G - 05-02-2021
Here's a fairly atypical merperson, accompanied by creatures.
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RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 05-02-2021
Always interesting to have another image to compare and contrast, in this case mostly contrast. It is an atypical, rather featureless merperson, no mirror, no comb, no duckies. It does appear to have a golden sword / rod (?). The real difference is the situation. Dante is being shown a 'hierarchy of being'.
The Lauber illustrations of "sea monsters" and "fish" show creatures of a certain type and, as it happens, generic mermaids are included in both illustrations. De Metz (long passed) in Harley 334 does the same.
The VMs is not a hierarchy situation. The VMs more closely follows the other three - in its own weird way. The fish have been replaced by creatures with legs. And who is the VMs special guest mermaid? Know any mermaids with legs?
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Linda - 07-02-2021
How do you know it's not a hierarchy situation? Particularly on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the bottom. I can see it being possible given a humanoid, a fish, a reptile or two, and mammals, one of which may have become aquatic (green head in the water), it may not be a hierarchy per se, but many of the steps of evolution, or at least indications of the diversity of living creatures, are included, just as they are in the Dante image, so why could it not also be indicative of the same thought? If f79v were a depiction of the first human from Anaximander's theory, a fully adult human that had incubated in a fish mouth until the world was ready to be inhabited, this would seem like a step in the hierarchy, or at least a change in the status quo insofar as human development and species relationships going forward. The last moment of being devoid of reason. Before Eve. Before Adam. Lilith, in the guise of the serpent, (especially as indicated in contemporary Adam and Eve depictions, Melusine especially her genealogical aspect, and Anaximander's first human all intertwine in the fish lizard monster mermaid ideas of early humans on Earth.
Heaven as nine spheres...here is another coincidence. What if you took the nine spheres and laid them out as a square? Or perhaps a pyramid shape, with the central sphere higher than the others.
And what if the center had 6 towers on it...
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Empyrean Heaven, the dwelling place of God.
It also evokes the zodiac section of the vms somewhat.
By the same artist: (Giovanni de Paolo)
I found this interesting, from wiki:
He may have been in contact with Franco-Flemish iluminators, who had been in Siena during Giovanni's early years. It seems their Northern influence may have rubbed off on Giovanni because his landscaoes resemble those in the famous paintings by the Limbourg brothers; Tres Riches Heures.
Also this page of Dante shows similarities with drawings found in copies of Dati or Sacrobosco. It shows that people may have seen some of these images outside the main original sources. Some of these have similarities with the star section of the vms as well.
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RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Aga Tentakulus - 07-02-2021
What is an original ? Melusine, siren, mermaid.
The first known written reference to the story of Melusine in the bathtub comes from England. Author known. (ca.1220).
The first known translation in German, (ca.1410) comes from Bern, (Switzerland). Author known.
But that is only the story. The pictures are much older.
Some say that something comes from Persia, others from Celtic mythology.
Presumably they have become mixed up over the centuries, so that an attribution is no longer possible.
Example bottle 400 BC,
and others.
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Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 07-02-2021
Linda,
The 'hierarchy of being' in the Dante illustration would appear to be a gloss / partial representation of the 'great chain of being' focused mainly on animals.
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The VMs illustration You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lacks diversity; no birds, fish, snakes, etc., etc. It also is insufficient in number of creatures to be a good hierarchy. The Dante illustration has 20+ little critters. The VMs only four. The greater similarity seems to me to be with the de Metz and Lauber images which purport to show creatures of a similar type rather than a full range of animals, let alone 'beings' in general.
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Aga,
That's an interesting object and image, She holds a sword and some other object (not a comb or mirror typical of mermaids). And there are the four "dog's"(??) heads. There are a whole host of different myths going back perhaps as far as Tiamat - mother of merpeople.
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Contains the statement: "The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. states that Tiamat gave You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to dragons and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among a more general list of monsters including You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but does not identify her form as that of a dragon; however, other sources containing the same myth do refer to her as such."
So these mermaid myths are all over the place.
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Are you trying to find a rational explanation for irrational beliefs? My suggestion is to go with the mythology that most closely aligns with the time and place and culture under investigation and to move outward from there *only* if necessary.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Tobias - 08-02-2021
(07-02-2021, 07:52 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Aga,
That's an interesting object and image, She holds a sword and some other object (not a comb or mirror typical of mermaids). And there are the four "dog's"(??) heads. There are a whole host of different myths going back perhaps as far as Tiamat - mother of merpeople.
This reminds me of the myth of Scylla who had six dogs heads growing out of her waist. Maybe there is a common inspiration?
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 08-02-2021
Spot on! I would say. Here she is on a Greek vase.
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The sword seems to be one of her primary attributes in her *BCE* manifestations.
The medieval focus (from what I've seen today) seems to have shifted prior to her monstrous transformation to images of Glaucus and Scylla, where she has no sword and generally has legs - - or whatever. It's those dogs, again.
See: Glaucus and Scylla (at)GallicaBNF (at)laBNF Bibliothèque municipale de Rouen, Ms O 4 f. 351
Replace (at) with @ and go to pinterest.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 08-02-2021
Problem solved. The best of both worlds.
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RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - bi3mw - 17-06-2021
In this illustration, it is easy to see that mermaids were seen more as fish creatures and not as human-like figures. They are visually classified among the other fish.
Also in Harley MS 334 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), the mermaid is surrounded by creatures.
Bodleian Library, MS. Douce 134, Livre de la Vigne nostre Seigneur, 1450–1470, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.