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+--- Thread: Medieval sirens and mermaids (/thread-2970.html)
Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 12-10-2019
In the cosmic comparison of VMs f68v3 with BNF Fr. 565 fol 23, the illustration of Harley 334 fol 29 has also been included.
Does the comparison of the siren /mermaid in the lower part of VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. form a second link with the illustration from Harley 334 fol 57?
There has been discussion of the VMs mermaid before, but I don't see where the Harley 334 image was included.
If not, is there a better match to the VMs illustration?
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Koen G - 12-10-2019
That's a very low-detail mermaid. I don't see any indications of a specific relation to the VM "mermaid". Do you?
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - R. Sale - 12-10-2019
Granted it is a bit hard to see. However there are general similarities of page location, similarities of position - head left and tail right, arms open wide, and it clearly is not one of those double-tailed versions. So it is closer than a number of other representations. Also the fish have a certain familiarity.
I saw JKP's blog on sirens and mermaids, and the accompanying images were not particular close. Harley 334 was not considered (not known [?] at that time) even though it seems to have some general similarities in comparison with the VMs.
Wondering if there are other similar images that match any better. Harley 334 seems to be in the mix already and having a comparable siren would tighten the connection. Plus, we all know how certain discrepancies can pop up in VMs illustrations.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Koen G - 13-10-2019
It's difficult to say because in my opinion, if we really take the image as it is, it's not a mermaid but rather a person standing in a fish mouth. The most common parallel in European art would be Jonah emerging from the whale.
Of course we can assume a different intention, but what's on the page is a Jonah type.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - arca_libraria - 13-10-2019
Dropping a link to BL Harley 334 here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Edited to add: I don't think that I have ever seen the full MS before - last time I looked at it the only images were on the old catalogue page which just had a few of the illustrations.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - VViews - 13-10-2019
(13-10-2019, 12:57 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course we can assume a different intention, but what's on the page is a Jonah type.
A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.by Ellie Velinska also shows interesting similarities with hellmouth iconography.
As I mentioned in the comments there, the fish-looking monster whose mouth is often depicted as the gate to hell is the Leviathan.
Ellie makes an interesting parallel with the purgatory page in the Tres Riches Heures... (Condé Ms 65) and especially BL Royal 19 C I - Last judgement
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - -JKP- - 13-10-2019
(12-10-2019, 11:43 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I saw JKP's blog on sirens and mermaids, and the accompanying images were not particular close. Harley 334 was not considered (not known [?] at that time) even though it seems to have some general similarities in comparison with the VMs.
...
Personally, I think Jonah imagery is much more similar than the Melusina imagery, but I didn't want to combine the two subjects into one blog for fear of smothering the Melusina story.
Most people are familiar with the Jonah story. Not many people are familiar with Melusina myths, so I felt it was more important to write about Melusina. Plus, I wanted to include the Lauber studio mermaid imagery because the other critter in the Lauber pic is so much like the other critter in the VMS pond (the one with the weird hind legs and painted-over ambiguous tail).
There is a lot of Jonah imagery.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - bi3mw - 13-10-2019
(13-10-2019, 12:57 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's difficult to say because in my opinion, if we really take the image as it is, it's not a mermaid but rather a person standing in a fish mouth....
I agree with that. She stands in the fishmouth. The transition from the lower body to the fish body is not seamless. Between fish mouth and legs there is a clear edge. But the nymph`s posture does not look as if she will be swallowed by a fish. I have no interpretation for this strange scene.
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - Koen G - 13-10-2019
Jonah imagery can be divided in a number of types.
There are scenes leading up to being swallowed by the whale, but those are not of interest to us.
![[Image: 7152d036a4218905a4d3dd4245f2b771.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/564x/71/52/d0/7152d036a4218905a4d3dd4245f2b771.jpg)
If the VM image is based on a Jonah example, it must be one where he emerges from the whale's mouth.
In the majority of cases I can find, Jonah is depicted in the orans pose. It had to be made clear to viewers that it was his continued dedication to God which saved his life.
![[Image: m140.035ra.jpg]](http://ica.themorgan.org/icaimages/1/m140.035ra.jpg)
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Some show him casually walking out, which I find pretty close to the VM image's vibe.
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There are still problems though. The VM figure is not Jonah; for starters, it is female with perhaps a hint of androgyny. Also, the pose is not one typical for Jonah, it appears to be customized for the VM page, looking up towards the figure overhead.
Also, the fish is drawn in a way that maximizes ambiguity. The eyes and moth opening don't match: both eyes visible imply a top-view on the head, but the mouth slit implies a side view. The opening has been made rounder and toothless. So with some goodwill you can see either a mermaid or someone standing in a fish mouth. Although the mermaid requires much more squinting...
RE: Medieval sirens and mermaids - -JKP- - 13-10-2019
To me it has always looked more like someone emerging more than someone being swallowed (or someone somehow associated with the fish) but what I find most interesting about it is that the fish's mouth has been drawn almost bowl-shaped, almost like a baptismal font.