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+--- Thread: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? (/thread-2968.html)
Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Stephen Carlson - 10-10-2019
I'm wondering if Voynichese was meant to be pronounced or pronounceable.
If it was, it would fit an unknown-language or glossolalia hypothesis, but not so much a ciphertext hypothesis. The answer seems neutral on a hoax hypothesis.
In favor, the glyphs really do look like an alphabet (some glyphs even present in Latin MSS), the "vords" seem to have an onset-nucleus-coda structure (which is pronounceable), and the EVA representation is pronounceable.
Against, no phonetic values are known, the script has layout effects (e.g., first character of lines, first lines of paragraphs, etc.), and many vords seem differ by only a stroke or two and may have been generated by purely graphic means (see Timm & Schinner).
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2019
There are some hints to what the VM, based on my research, can be traced back to a certain region.
Over the years I have noticed again and again what individual VM researchers have written about the relation of the language. Some write it in Occitan or Catalan. Possibly Spanish other French, Latin or Italian.
Maybe they were all right somehow.
In my experience, the encryption system is not as complicated as it seems. I think one fails because of the language at hand.
This variant fits on the basis of the hints, and would explain quite a few things.
Translation engl.
Origin & Variants
Ladin is a neo-Latin language. It originated from the Romanisation of the Alps. The Rhaetian population adopted (popular) Latin; under the influence of peculiarities of its own language (syntax, phonetics, vocabulary), the language developed into Ladin (=Rhaeto-Romanic).
The Ladin language is the direct continuation of the popular Latin spoken in the Alps towards the end of the Roman Empire.
The decline of Rhaetian in the Alps is comparable to the decline of Gallic in France.
The Rhaeto-Romans and the Romanians are the only ones who bear the word "Rome" in their names; the inhabitants of the Inn valley and the Dolomites even call themselves "Ladin", Latin.
An early form of Ladin, like the other neo-Latin languages, probably originated around the 8th/9th century.
The language lies approximately in the middle between French and Italian. Occitan or Catalan are also closely related to Rhaeto-Romanic.
Original:
Entstehung & Varianten
Ladinisch ist eine neulateinische Sprache. Entstanden ist sie durch die Romanisierung der Alpen. Die rätische Bevölkerung übernahm das (Volks)Latein; unter Einfluss von Eigenheiten der eigenen Sprache (Syntax, Phonetik, Wortschatz) entwickelte sich die Sprache zum Ladinischen (=Rätoromanischen).
Die ladinische Sprache ist die direkte Weiterführung des gegen Ende des römischen Reiches in den Alpen gesprochenen Volkslateins.
Der Untergang des Rätischen in den Alpen ist vergleichbar mit dem Untergang des Gallischen in Frankreich.
Die Rätoromanen und die Rumänen sind die einzigen, die in ihrer Bezeichnung das Wort "Rom" tragen; die Bewohner des Inntales und der Dolomiten nennen sich gar "Ladiner", also Lateiner.
Eine Frühform des Ladinischen dürfte, wie auch die anderen neulateinischen Sprachen, rund um das 8./9. Jahrhundert entstanden sein.
Die Sprache liegt ungefähr in der Mitte zwischen Französisch und Italienisch. Mit dem Rätoromanischen nahe verwandt sich auch Okzitanisch oder Katalanisch.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2019
3. dialects Northern Italy
2. groupings Eastern Italy
1. eastern Italy in proportions of different languages
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - -JKP- - 11-10-2019
Aga, do you think the VMS is a cipher? Do you think the glyphs can be mapped to a natural language?
If so, how do you explain the fact that letter frequency and letter position in Ladin does not match the patterns in the VMS?
By the way, I think Ladin is as good a guess as any, and it has been mentioned by others (and is also on my list), but first one has to establish that there is some way to map Voynichese to natural language patterns.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2019
what tells you that the letters match wrong ?
Ladin is only one possibility. But all hints are aimed at this language area. That's just a guess.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - -JKP- - 11-10-2019
Quote:Aga: Yeah, I think it's an encryption of a natural language. I even think it can be read without much effort.
what tells you that the letters match wrong ?
The letters are mapped wrong because letters in natural languages move around within words. For example, the letter "a" can be in any position in a word.
This does not happen in Voynichese. Certain glyphs are at the beginning, certain glyphs are at the end, and certain glyphs are in the middle. There are also patterns that persist from one VMS token to the next.
Take your bottom example... look at the letter "a". Notice that it moves around and that its "next neighbor" (the glyph immediately before or after) can be a number of different glyphs. This kind of movement within a token occurs to a much lesser degree in Voynichese.
I've searched languages all over the globe and I can't find any that are structured like this. Even syllabic languages are more flexible in their placement of letters than Voynichese glyphs.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2019
Apart from the fact that prefixes and endings have their place. Bring an example from the VM
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2019
They are always the same symbols, but linked differently.
It smells like encryption to me, and it also answers your question about the distribution of letters.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - Stephen Carlson - 11-10-2019
(11-10-2019, 06:41 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've searched languages all over the globe and I can't find any that are structured like this. Even syllabic languages are more flexible in their placement of letters than Voynichese glyphs.This probably means that Voynichese is not a real language (just as, e.g., glossolalia is not a real language), but it might still be pronounceable. I wondering if the creator of the VM was able to "read" it aloud to a prospective purchaser.
RE: Was Voynichese meant to be pronounced? - ReneZ - 11-10-2019
Thanks to Aga T. for the good overview. In the past I have tried to do something similar, based on a combination (a super-set) of all the symbols in extended Eva and v-101.
Then, probably there are still some that have been missed in both transliterations, or at least have been considered 'the same' while they could be different.
That was rather a big task (and I did not yet complete it) because it also requires to check which symbols in v-101 match with which symbols in extended Eva, by checking the transliterations.
So I wonder if Aga T. could clarify if this table was set up independently, or based on v-101 or a combination of v-101 and extended Eva.