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+--- Thread: A Rose or Wheel Window (/thread-2950.html)
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 02-10-2019
(02-10-2019, 02:27 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This is what I think looks very much like Flamboyant Tracery->
Yes, it looks that way to me too. I looked at thousands of pictures of domes (and windows), thinking the shapes might be modeled after a specific dome. This was also many years ago. I posted some of them on a blog, but I have many more.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 02-10-2019
Mostly I was looking at real architecture (not architecture in manuscripts), but I did occasionally come across some interesting things in manuscripts, like this star-studded dome-within-a-rainbow edged by a double-infurled cloudband:
This is renovated, but possibly is fairly true to the original, but it is interesting because they were inspired by outdoor Gothic architecture to make indoor ceiling embellishments:
Image Credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Flicker)
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 02-10-2019
(02-10-2019, 03:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(02-10-2019, 02:35 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The attached image illustrates my ideas regarding the drawing representing the aerial view of cloisters with an ajoining herb garden. The cloisters have a X Shaped paths rather than the more common + Shaped paths. In the centre of the cloisters there is statue. Obviously I have a very specific location in mind.
That's what it looks like to me too. In fact, I must have looked at about 4,000 aerial photos of gardens, searching for the X shaped style (they are in the minority) and saved all the ones I could find on my hard drive (this was about 8 or 9 years ago). I still haven't had time to evaluate them.
I did find one very good architectural drawing that matches quite well. I don't know how hard it would be for me to locate it in my files (maybe minutes, maybe days).
Well, I certainly have looked at a number, but I found the one that I associate with that drawing, as it was the only cloisters that fit closely with where I expected the bottom right rosette to be geographically given my "map" model of the page and also I think the resemblance is striking.
In the context of my own personal model this is by far and away the most important identification on the 9 rosette page.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 02-10-2019
(02-10-2019, 03:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(02-10-2019, 02:35 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The attached image illustrates my ideas regarding the drawing representing the aerial view of cloisters with an ajoining herb garden. The cloisters have a X Shaped paths rather than the more common + Shaped paths. In the centre of the cloisters there is statue. Obviously I have a very specific location in mind.
That's what it looks like to me too. In fact, I must have looked at about 4,000 aerial photos of gardens, searching for the X shaped style (they are in the minority) and saved all the ones I could find on my hard drive (this was about 8 or 9 years ago). I still haven't had time to evaluate them.
I did find one very good architectural drawing that matches quite well. I don't know how hard it would be for me to locate it in my files (maybe minutes, maybe days).
These images may give you an idea of my thoughts on cloisters.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 02-10-2019
(02-10-2019, 03:38 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Mostly I was looking at real architecture (not architecture in manuscripts), but I did occasionally come across some interesting things in manuscripts, like this star-studded dome-within-a-rainbow edged by a double-infurled cloudband:
This is renovated, but possibly is fairly true to the original, but it is interesting because they were inspired by outdoor Gothic architecture to make indoor ceiling embellishments:
Image Credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Flicker)
If your suggestion is that the bottom centre rosette might represent a ceiling drawn from below then that is also my conclusion as I think I must have written on Nick's blog some time ago. Likewise I am inclined to the view that the top centre rosette also illustrates a ceiling drawn from below.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 03-10-2019
Post #14, is exactly how I see it as well, as illustrated in the pictures you posted. I collected thousands of aerial photos of gardens and also many medieval drawings of gardens, many of them similar to the ones you posted. I was especially looking for the ones with the X-shaped garden (they are less common).
The Garden of Gethsemane is + shaped rather than X shaped.
This one I found interesting because of the plant-covered archways along the edges. Notice the VMS "rows" have something similar along the right edge:
I suspect that the flowing lines on the far right might be slopes or possibly water feeding the gardens.
Here are the d'este Gardens (later than the VMS, but representative of the kinds of gardens that were extant):
This one has both the + and the X shape and is contained within an oval:
The Padua gardens are also contained within a circle:
The gardens of Rome show how slopes next to major buildings were often covered in gardens (I collected all these years ago but never had enough time to blog about them):
One of the things I learned in the process is that gardens like this were very common on the slopes next to palaces, universities and monasteries. They were everywhere, mainly for food, but also for pleasure and entertainment for nobility. Nobles also had decorative gardens, as documented by Bessler.
Thousands of gardens with arched courtyards around them as well. Acres and acres of gardens. There are only about 360 million people on the planet in those days—an average of twenty times as much land per person.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 03-10-2019
By the way, I was not trying to suggest by the examples that the bottom-right "garden" was necessarily circular, but I was trying to get a feel for whether familiarity with a circular garden might have inspired the particular way the VMS folio is laid out.
I don't really get the feeling that it is, but I thought I should at least look into the possibility.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 03-10-2019
(03-10-2019, 03:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Post #14, is exactly how I see it as well, as illustrated in the pictures you posted. I collected thousands of aerial photos of gardens and also many medieval drawings of gardens, many of them similar to the ones you posted. I was especially looking for the ones with the X-shaped garden (they are less common).
The Garden of Gethsemane is + shaped rather than X shaped.
This one I found interesting because of the plant-covered archways along the edges. Notice the VMS "rows" have something similar along the right edge:
I suspect that the flowing lines on the far right might be slopes or possibly water feeding the gardens.
Here are the d'este Gardens (later than the VMS, but representative of the kinds of gardens that were extant):
This one has both the + and the X shape and is contained within an oval:
The Padua gardens are also contained within a circle:
The gardens of Rome show how slopes next to major buildings were often covered in gardens (I collected all these years ago but never had enough time to blog about them):
One of the things I learned in the process is that gardens like this were very common on the slopes next to palaces, universities and monasteries. They were everywhere, mainly for food, but also for pleasure and entertainment for nobility. Nobles also had decorative gardens, as documented by Bessler.
Thousands of gardens with arched courtyards around them as well. Acres and acres of gardens. There are only about 360 million people on the planet in those days—an average of twenty times as much land per person.
In the bottom far right rosette I interpret those drawings adjacent to the right of the gardens, as showing irrigation channels and/or pipes. On the far right of this rosette I interpret the drawings as fields spreading out into the distance. Obviously my interpretation of these details is influenced by identification of a specific location corresponding to that rosette.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - -JKP- - 03-10-2019
I see this as irrigation, as well. I think I've mentioned it on one of the forum threads some time ago. Irrigation in those days (before electric pumps) was based on gravity, the water towers were high, so it would make sense for some of it to look like it was flowing downhill. Not saying this is specifically what it is, but it would not be out of place to look at it that way.
They did have water wheels (this is why I sometimes wonder if the in-between rota might be fountains or water wheels). The grain mills had water wheels, but water wheels were also extensively used in the hotter regions for irrigation, and were often operated by yoked animals walking around the well in endless circles.
We're pretty much in agreement on how we interpret the general parts of this circle. I think it's a garden, an aerial view, I think there are rows of plants, also an X-shaped garden (maybe herbs, maybe decorative), and irrigation. There are others who feel differently.
RE: A Rose or Wheel Window - Mark Knowles - 03-10-2019
(03-10-2019, 09:15 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I see this as irrigation, as well. I think I've mentioned it on one of the forum threads some time ago. Irrigation in those days (before electric pumps) was based on gravity, the water towers were high, so it would make sense for some of it to look like it was flowing downhill. Not saying this is specifically what it is, but it would not be out of place to look at it that way.
They did have water wheels (this is why I sometimes wonder if the in-between rota might be fountains or water wheels). The grain mills had water wheels, but water wheels were also extensively used in the hotter regions for irrigation, and were often operated by yoked animals walking around the well in endless circles.
We're pretty much in agreement on how we interpret the general parts of this circle. I think it's a garden, an aerial view, I think there are rows of plants, also an X-shaped garden (maybe herbs, maybe decorative), and irrigation. There are others who feel differently.
There are always "others who feel differently". For every Voynich theory or idea that is out there, there are others who feel differently. This is an expected and probably positive aspect of Voynich research, namely a diversity of different theories. My main issue with most or all other theories of this page is that they do not pay attention to or seek to explain the many specific details that I have highlighted here as well as the very many specific details that I have not yet discussed on this forum; they just seem quite superficial e.g. there are large circles on the page, so they must represent planets and there are many * drawings all over the page, so they must represent stars.